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Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/3/2008 5:58:37 PM
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Prairiehiker
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What did Jesus mean when he said those words? Does that mean that those people were forgiven because Jesus intercede for them? Does this mean that ignorance should automatically forgiven? It was a question posted in STR this weekend, and the host, which I deeply admire, couldn't answer.
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Wishing for a Steelers/Eagles superbowl.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/3/2008 6:22:53 PM
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Bluethread
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This passgae is much more complicated than it appears. It is not clear whether luke was merely giving a chronological recounting of events, or he was making implication in the ways he was presenting the story. Therefore, there has been much debate regarding who in particular the Messiah was talking about, those who were executing Him, those who were gambling over His clothes, the crowd or mankind in general. It is possible that he was restating the rabbinic view that only sins of ignorance are forgiven, while willful sins are damnable. Due to the complexity of the passage, I would be reluctant to derive any doctrine from any of the statements in isolation. I would tend to think of them as statements of compassion and desperation as the Messiah experiences the consequences of our actions.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/3/2008 8:05:39 PM
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dduuggyy
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Hello,
Yes Jesus was interceding for them, he was basically asking for their forgiveness on his behalf. Jesus had to go to the cross and he knew that, for he was the ultimate atonement for all sin. He was the only way to salvation for his blood had to be shed for the remission of sin. The Romans and the people that orchestrated the crucifixion were only vessels and they just didn't know. No one knows if they were actually forgiven (at least to my knowledge) but I couldn't see having a better source than Jesus interceding for you and I can't see GOD overlooking his son's request but I could be wrong once again (As I speak to you, I speak to myself as myself) Blessings!
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 12:08:18 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
What did Jesus mean when he said those words? Does that mean that those people were forgiven because Jesus intercede for them? Does this mean that ignorance should automatically forgiven? It was a question posted in STR this weekend, and the host, which I deeply admire, couldn't answer.
Jesus is interceding for them. He is not personally forgiving them but asking His Father to forgive them. He taught us to pray for our enemies. And He is leading us by example. It is similar to Stephen's prayer when he was being stoned. He prayed, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!"
Neither of these examples change what God has to say about wrongdoing. The one who has done wrong must repent, judge himself wrong, before forgiveness. God's declaration is "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:8).
There is much misunderstanding and wrong teaching in regard to forgiveness. We are not to hold any malice or allow bitterness in our hearts but to forgive apart from repentance is to fail to uphold God's standard of righteousness.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 12:12:14 AM
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Prairiehiker
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quote:
There is much misunderstanding and wrong teaching in regard to forgiveness. We are not to hold any malice or allow bitterness in our hearts but to forgive apart from repentance is to fail to uphold God's standard of righteousness.
This i agree completely. According to the program I listened to, it is not forgiveness when we let go of our resentments towards someone who never acknowledge wrongdoing and never repented. This would make forgiveness to be cheap grace. There should be another word for this, but it's not forgiveness.
I'm still mulling the "forgive them for..." over.
_____________________________
Wishing for a Steelers/Eagles superbowl.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 3:15:17 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
quote:
There is much misunderstanding and wrong teaching in regard to forgiveness. We are not to hold any malice or allow bitterness in our hearts but to forgive apart from repentance is to fail to uphold God's standard of righteousness.
This i agree completely. According to the program I listened to, it is not forgiveness when we let go of our resentments towards someone who never acknowledge wrongdoing and never repented. This would make forgiveness to be cheap grace. There should be another word for this, but it's not forgiveness.
I'm still mulling the "forgive them for..." over.
No, you are absolutely right. This 'forgiveness', the letting go of resentments, is not forgiveness at all. It is perhaps choosing to not hate, or to deal with the bitterness within. But it has been confused with true forgiveness.
What did Jesus teach when a brother wrongs you? To forgive them? No. He taught that if the brother repents forgive him. And if he wrongs you seven times and repents seven times, you are to forgive. This is a picture of true forgiveness, God style forgiveness.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 7:46:58 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
No, you are absolutely right. This 'forgiveness', the letting go of resentments, is not forgiveness at all. It is perhaps choosing to not hate, or to deal with the bitterness within. But it has been confused with true forgiveness. Actually there are different kinds of forgiveness.
The basic kind is releasing the debt (real or perceived) owed by wrongdoing. This requires nothing from the offender. We are all required to walk in this level of forgiveness with everyone. It clears the books for the wronged but does little to improve the relationship.
There is a much deeper forgiveness where the offender repents/apologises and asks for forgiveness. This will lead to an improved relationship between offender and offended if forgiveness is extended.
The passage in question (and the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7) are examples to us of the basic kind of forgiveness that we all must walk in constantly.
Act 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Yeshua/Jesus said this to his trainees as commentary on what we call the "Our Father" or "The Lord's Prayer:"
Mat 6:14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Mat 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
This is the basic forgiveness that requires no response on the part of the transgressor. Otherwise, if they do not repent and we cannot forgive them, we in turn cannot be forgiven.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 9:07:25 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
No, you are absolutely right. This 'forgiveness', the letting go of resentments, is not forgiveness at all. It is perhaps choosing to not hate, or to deal with the bitterness within. But it has been confused with true forgiveness. Actually there are different kinds of forgiveness.
The basic kind is releasing the debt (real or perceived) owed by wrongdoing. This requires nothing from the offender. We are all required to walk in this level of forgiveness with everyone. It clears the books for the wronged but does little to improve the relationship.
There is a much deeper forgiveness where the offender repents/apologises and asks for forgiveness. This will lead to an improved relationship between offender and offended if forgiveness is extended.
The passage in question (and the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7) are examples to us of the basic kind of forgiveness that we all must walk in constantly.
Act 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Yeshua/Jesus said this to his trainees as commentary on what we call the "Our Father" or "The Lord's Prayer:"
Mat 6:14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Mat 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
This is the basic forgiveness that requires no response on the part of the transgressor. Otherwise, if they do not repent and we cannot forgive them, we in turn cannot be forgiven.
Why do we assume this requires no response? Jesus teaches us to forgive when they repent.
Where does God ever forgive apart from repentance????
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 10:04:27 PM
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Prairiehiker
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Also, how can we intercede for someone when it comes to repentance. Isn't repentance a personal decision? I can't ask God to forgive anyone else's sin because it's just not right. I can see asking God to have mercy on someone and lead them into repentance. Can this be what Jesus meant? Perhaps, Jesus was asking God to open their eyes so that that they may acknowledge their sins and thus ask for forgiveness.
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Wishing for a Steelers/Eagles superbowl.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 10:09:50 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
Joined: 9/22/2008
From: Arkansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
No, you are absolutely right. This 'forgiveness', the letting go of resentments, is not forgiveness at all. It is perhaps choosing to not hate, or to deal with the bitterness within. But it has been confused with true forgiveness. Actually there are different kinds of forgiveness.
The basic kind is releasing the debt (real or perceived) owed by wrongdoing. This requires nothing from the offender. We are all required to walk in this level of forgiveness with everyone. It clears the books for the wronged but does little to improve the relationship.
There is a much deeper forgiveness where the offender repents/apologises and asks for forgiveness. This will lead to an improved relationship between offender and offended if forgiveness is extended.
The passage in question (and the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7) are examples to us of the basic kind of forgiveness that we all must walk in constantly.
Act 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Yeshua/Jesus said this to his trainees as commentary on what we call the "Our Father" or "The Lord's Prayer:"
Mat 6:14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Mat 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
This is the basic forgiveness that requires no response on the part of the transgressor. Otherwise, if they do not repent and we cannot forgive them, we in turn cannot be forgiven.
I agree Dave....
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7 
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 10:14:25 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
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From: Arkansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
No, you are absolutely right. This 'forgiveness', the letting go of resentments, is not forgiveness at all. It is perhaps choosing to not hate, or to deal with the bitterness within. But it has been confused with true forgiveness. Actually there are different kinds of forgiveness.
The basic kind is releasing the debt (real or perceived) owed by wrongdoing. This requires nothing from the offender. We are all required to walk in this level of forgiveness with everyone. It clears the books for the wronged but does little to improve the relationship.
There is a much deeper forgiveness where the offender repents/apologises and asks for forgiveness. This will lead to an improved relationship between offender and offended if forgiveness is extended.
The passage in question (and the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7) are examples to us of the basic kind of forgiveness that we all must walk in constantly.
Act 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Yeshua/Jesus said this to his trainees as commentary on what we call the "Our Father" or "The Lord's Prayer:"
Mat 6:14 "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Mat 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
This is the basic forgiveness that requires no response on the part of the transgressor. Otherwise, if they do not repent and we cannot forgive them, we in turn cannot be forgiven.
Why do we assume this requires no response? Jesus teaches us to forgive when they repent.
Where does God ever forgive apart from repentance????
There have been alot of people who have hurt me and done me wrong in the past, and I have chosen to forgive them, without them repenting to "me." Jesus' teaches us to forgive those who have wronged us, and He assures us, that we dont have to seek revenge on anyone, because He is our avenger, and there have been many times, that I pray He has mercy on them.
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 10:43:40 PM
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crankius
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quote:
We are not to hold any malice or allow bitterness in our hearts but to forgive apart from repentance is to fail to uphold God's standard of righteousness.
quote:
Why do we assume this requires no response? Jesus teaches us to forgive when they repent.
Where does God ever forgive apart from repentance????
When you hold the debt, you make yourself the righteous judge and the account keeper. Our judgment is imperfect and we cannot see the heart.
As a Christian, it is great and easy to think of Christ forgiving our sins, but Christ also takes the debts of those who have sinned against us.
When I give Christ my debts, and those debts against me, I recognize Him as Lord, Him as righteous, Him as Judge.
Who better to hold the debt? If I hold it, it will only become a heavy burden on me and cause bitterness, and in essence nullifies the work on the cross.
Here is another helpful passage regarding our reaction to wrongs against us:
Romans 12:18-21 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
But this post doesn't really help with the OP. 
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/4/2008 11:31:55 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
We are not to hold any malice or allow bitterness in our hearts but to forgive apart from repentance is to fail to uphold God's standard of righteousness.
quote:
Why do we assume this requires no response? Jesus teaches us to forgive when they repent.
Where does God ever forgive apart from repentance????
When you hold the debt, you make yourself the righteous judge and the account keeper. Our judgment is imperfect and we cannot see the heart.
As a Christian, it is great and easy to think of Christ forgiving our sins, but Christ also takes the debts of those who have sinned against us.
When I give Christ my debts, and those debts against me, I recognize Him as Lord, Him as righteous, Him as Judge.
Who better to hold the debt? If I hold it, it will only become a heavy burden on me and cause bitterness, and in essence nullifies the work on the cross.
Here is another helpful passage regarding our reaction to wrongs against us:
Romans 12:18-21 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
But this post doesn't really help with the OP.
Their sin debt is not against me. It is against God---just as David prayed in Ps 51. Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned.
Can a sinner sin against another sinner? I don't think so. I am not holding any debt.
I have had many do evil to me over the years. I am not holding any debt. Nor have I forgiven them unless and until they repent and ASK for my forgiveness. And then I tell them thank you for coming to repentance but that their forgiveness for their sin comes from God and in His name I can tell them they are forgiven.
There are others who have not repented---or let me know of their repentance. Those people I continue to pray for asking the Lord to lead them to repentance so that they will not stand ashamed before Him. Just as I ask Him to show me MY SIN so that I will be found blameless as well.
I consider the father in the story of the prodigal son as the best illustration of what true forgiveness looks like. The prodigal son sins. What is the father's response? Does he say 'I forgive you son and go out looking for him?' No. The father stays home. He holds no bitterness or malice in his heart toward this son. In fact, he holds forgiveness in his heart for his son. But the son must return/repent to receive the father's forgiveness. The father looks longingly for the son's return. That is what I am to do as well. I cry out to God on the behalf of those who I know are in sin and have not repented. And if and when they repent and come and confess, they will find me as the father in the story of the prodigal---with arms open and love to offer and the Lord's forgiveness to proclaim to them. . . that is true forgiveness as described by God.
I really don't think there is any other.
I believe all of these 'other' forms of forgiveness have been made by man and are not consistent with what His word clearly teaches on the subject.
So again I will ask. . . when does God forgive apart from repentance?
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/5/2008 12:02:29 AM
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crankius
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quote:
Can a sinner sin against another sinner?
Matt 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother."
quote:
I cry out to God on the behalf of those who I know are in sin and have not repented.
Also, we are to help restore a brother or sister when they stumble:
Ga 6:1 - Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
< Message edited by crankius -- 11/5/2008 12:20:29 AM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/5/2008 12:06:29 AM
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crankius
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quote:
when does God forgive apart from repentance?
Are you asking this about the OP and what Jesus said? Or are you asking and applying it to us?
We are not God. We can only obey what the Scriptures tell us to do. We don't get to demand that someone repent in order for us to forgive.
Mr 11:25 "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses."
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/5/2008 5:42:46 AM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Why do we assume this requires no response? Jesus teaches us to forgive when they repent.
Where does God ever forgive apart from repentance????
Jesus said "father forgive them for they know not what they do"...... there is one instance.
does the bible teach us that it is ever okay to not forgive? does it teach us that it is okay to hold a grudge?
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/5/2008 8:31:59 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I believe all of these 'other' forms of forgiveness have been made by man and are not consistent with what His word clearly teaches on the subject. It seems you have erroneously lumped all the various forms of forgiveness together. You are trying to approach this from a one-size-fits-all mentality.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Mar 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."
Mar 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
I do not see any exemption for the "anyone" not repenting. Or that they even need to be aware they wronged you. The command is to forgive. Is this a "made by man" idea? It is Jesus Himself speaking. How does this passage square with your statement?
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Luk 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
Luk 6:38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."
Again, no requrement of anyone to repent.
As to someone sinning against you or me, (again, Jesus speaking) consider this passage:
Luk 17:4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/5/2008 5:44:44 PM
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BookerG
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I think of forgiveness as having 3 parts.
1. There is a debt. If someone steals from me, he owes a debt to me, a debt to earthly justice, and a debt to God. To forgive is to cancel the debt. I can lovingly cancel a debt to me, even to the unrepentant, even though he may still have to go to jail, but the debt to God remains until God forgives it. And even if I say you don't owe me anything, I still have to lovingly warn him that without repentance there is no forgiveness from God.
2. There is anger and a desire for revenge or punishment. I must forgive, in the sense of letting go of the anger, whether the other repents or not.
3. There is a severed relationship. Even if, in my own heart I have forgiven someone and feel nothing but mercy and love toward him, the full bonds of friendship and trust can not be restored until he repents. Relationship is a two-way street and it can't be repaired unilaterally, in just one direction. Forgiveness in the fullest sense of the word can not possibly be proclaimed until there is repentance.
I think of God's forgiveness in the same way. The debt was paid by Christ, for all people. God, for Christ's sake, has let go of the desire to see the guilty punished. "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked." This much is what Lutherans mean by objective or universal justification. But God does not unilaterally repair the severed relationship, and the wicked are separated from God and lost until there is repentance and faith. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself. But we still need to be reconciled to him.
I don't mean to turn this into a discussion of that whole doctrine, but I can't explain what I believe about Christ's words on the cross without that basic explanation.
I think Christ's words on the cross both asked God to accept Christ's payment on their behalf, and pleaded with God not to burn with anger against them. "Them" was first and primarily the soldiers who didn't know what they were doing, but who nevertheless committed an act of the worst evil in the history of the world, for which God could justly have said there can be no forgiveness. Ignorance is no excuse.
But he was not asking God to let them into heaven without repentance, merely to turn aside his anger at this sin.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/6/2008 7:19:54 AM
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Prairiehiker
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quote:
I think Christ's words on the cross both asked God to accept Christ's payment on their behalf, and pleaded with God not to burn with anger against them. "Them" was first and primarily the soldiers who didn't know what they were doing, but who nevertheless committed an act of the worst evil in the history of the world, for which God could justly have said there can be no forgiveness. Ignorance is no excuse.
But he was not asking God to let them into heaven without repentance, merely to turn aside his anger at this sin.
I think this is the same view that I had about the verse but I couldn't articulate it. Thanks.
_____________________________
Wishing for a Steelers/Eagles superbowl.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/6/2008 12:24:38 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
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As with the three R's of repentance there are three matching A's to forgiveness.
Recognize that a wrong was done; Acknowledge that you have been wronged
Restore those wronged to their previous state; Accept whatever is offered with grace
Reform one's behavior; Assist the offender in changing their behavior
These are rather simplistic explanations, minimums and subject to the cooperation of both parties. However, lack of cooperation does not relieve one of the responsibility to do what one can.
I believe the underlying principles are:
Le 19:18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
and
Mt 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/6/2008 5:58:21 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I believe all of these 'other' forms of forgiveness have been made by man and are not consistent with what His word clearly teaches on the subject. It seems you have erroneously lumped all the various forms of forgiveness together. You are trying to approach this from a one-size-fits-all mentality.
Perhaps. I mean that is one way of seeing it---and I do appreciate your forthrightness. But I don't see it as 'one-size-fits-all' but instead understanding forgiveness as God sees it which is consistent. I'll try and elaborate more specifically.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Mar 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."
Mar 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
God is dealing with our hearts. We tend to hold judgments, grievances, and to take offense. So He is telling us to give up OUR sin of bearing grudges or holding grudges even against one who has repented. Forgive them is His word to us. If they have repented, forgive them. And if they have not, pray for them and do NOT harbor bitterness or malice towards them.
I do not see any exemption for the "anyone" not repenting. Or that they even need to be aware they wronged you. The command is to forgive. Is this a "made by man" idea? It is Jesus Himself speaking. How does this passage square with your statement?
The exemption is made by God Himself. Where does God ever forgive apart from repentance? If we forgive our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. IJohn 1:9 Again Jesus is talking about our hearts, our tendency to have hard hearts that hold on to grievances, even grievances that have been repented of. I don't believe God or Jesus ever tell us to forgive apart from repentance because this is inconsistent with God's standard of righteousness and our access to it through repentance.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Luk 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
Luk 6:38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."
Again He's dealing with our hearts. It seems to be a subject Jesus just won't let up on. And our unwillingness to forgive those who are truly deserving of our forgiveness, those who have repented, is a problem---it hinders our pray, our relationship with God and with others.
Again, no requrement of anyone to repent.
As to someone sinning against you or me, (again, Jesus speaking) consider this passage:
Luk 17:4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."
What if we render 'sins against you' as offends you? Isn't that what He is talking about? How can I be sinned against? Am I holy? But I can take offense. That's what the flesh, pride, self loving man does. Ouch, you hurt me. If we view sin as against God rather than ourselves, then we can more easily live out the command to bear the burdens of others and help restore them. It is not me that is wounded but God Who has been sinned against. And as your brother or sister I want to come along side and help you. And if a brother has sinned and repented, who am I to hold anything against that brother? I can pronounce Christ's forgiveness to them.
Anyway, that's the way I understand these passages.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/9/2008 5:21:31 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 3268
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Back to the topic. Could we also use the verse to support the doctrine that blasphemy is the unpardonable sin because blasphemy is a sin commited while a person already has full knowledge of Christ. So, in saying Father, forgive them for they know now what they do, Christ is saying that those people doesn't have full knowledge of His saving power, therefore, can still be forgiven?
_____________________________
Wishing for a Steelers/Eagles superbowl.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/9/2008 11:07:20 PM
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creationtalk
Posts: 704
Joined: 6/9/2005
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I agree most with DaveW and BookerG,
I also think that Jesus was praying for those who were crucifying him in particular...Although Jesus' purpose in coming to Earth was to die, he was still God's son. If someone was harming my son, even if he had volunteered to accept the harm and I agreed that it was the only way...I'd still want to tear them limb for limb...If God is truly "the Father" do you not believe that he would feel this way too? It is said that he is a jealous God and that he can burn with anger.
I tend to see forgiveness as something separate from reconciliation.
We need to forgive someone no matter what--that is let go the hurt, anger, desire for retribution--no matter how deserved. Forgiveness was accomplished by Jesus on the cross--he said "It is finished."
Reconciliation is what leads to the restoration of the relationship. This can only be accomplished by the person who has offended asking forgiveness/accepting forgiveness, acknowledging the wrong, then reconciliation takes place. Salvation is reconciliation.
Restoration is a process. This is what we go through as we learn and grow in Christ--we are slowly being "restored" to what God intended in the creation.
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/10/2008 4:05:45 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
Back to the topic. Could we also use the verse to support the doctrine that blasphemy is the unpardonable sin because blasphemy is a sin commited while a person already has full knowledge of Christ. So, in saying Father, forgive them for they know now what they do, Christ is saying that those people doesn't have full knowledge of His saving power, therefore, can still be forgiven?
If one has perfect knowledge, you might have a point. However, knowledge does not lead to salvation. Grace and faith are what lead to salvation. How much knowledge is necessary for Adonai to extend grace is not clear. Or I should say how much knowledge Adonai graciously provides before he imparts faith is not clear.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do - 11/10/2008 10:27:31 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1307
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Jesus was forgiving everyone. Remember when Peter asked Him how many times should I forgive? and Jesus said 70 x 7. In other words, everytime. Also look at what Jesus said about forgiveness and you'll see who He pleaded for, everyone involved. We are to imitate Him by forgiving those who hurt us.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
What did Jesus mean when he said those words? Does that mean that those people were forgiven because Jesus intercede for them? Does this mean that ignorance should automatically forgiven? It was a question posted in STR this weekend, and the host, which I deeply admire, couldn't answer.
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