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Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/6/2008 4:18:50 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
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I'm interested in seeing Sciptures that clearly identify the term Holy Spirit refering to a distinct individual and not a catch all euphemism for any representation of Adonai that would not generally be incorporated in the terms Infinite Personal Creator or Messiah incarnate?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/6/2008 4:44:35 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
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First, it is helpful to establish that the Father and the Son are distinct persons. Since you have repeatedly refused to meet the challenge in my signature, namely:
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
It will be very difficult to proceed any further. If you accepted the plain truth that the eternal Son of God is very clearly distinct from the eternal Father, at many many points in scripture, then it would be as simple as quoting:
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
If we understand that the persons of the Father and the Son have already been proven, then it becomes obvious that the person of the Holy Spirit is clearly shown by this passage, even if no other. However, there are other verses:
John 14: 16-20
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 18"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19"After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
John 15: 26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,"
Note that the Son asks the Father to send another, an other that is clearly given personal qualities. The Holy Spirit gives testimony, is referred to by personal pronouns, and is called "Helper", in the Greek Parakletos. Now, I haven't don much Greek study. What I have been told about Parakletos, though, is that it is a very personal word, not something that would be used of an impersonal force or an image.
Furthermore:
Romans 8:16, 26-27
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Again, we have the Spirit testifying on behalf of believers, not only that, but this passage shows the Spirit has a mind of His own, that the Father will know when the Spirit intercedes for us.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/6/2008 6:02:04 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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Another little tidbit - the Greek word for spirit is neuter. However, when referring to the Holy Spirit, the masculine definite article is used. Usually, mixing and matching genders between nouns and definite articles is a big no-no in Greek grammar, but the NT authors made an exception, at times, for the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/6/2008 6:56:15 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
If we understand that the persons of the Father and the Son have already been proven, then it becomes obvious that the person of the Holy Spirit is clearly shown by this passage, even if no other.
That is not necessarily the case. When something or someone is refered to there need not be a total division. One can refer to two distinct parts and then refer to the rest. A bucket of water may have two ice cubes in it. The only thing in the bucket is H2O. However, one can say the bucket contains a large ice cube, small ice cube and water. Of course, the ice cubes are also water, but we do not call them that so we can note that they are ice cubes.
quote:
John 14: 16-20
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 18"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19"After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
This passage doesn't appear to make the point clear either, because it has mixed imagery. We have another that is with us forever, invisible and indwells us. Then the Messiah says He will come to us, will be invisible and will indwell us. There appears to be a parallel here. Therefore, we could have a euphemism that helps us to understand that the Messiah is now with us in another form.
quote:
John 15: 26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,"
Note that the Son asks the Father to send another, an other that is clearly given personal qualities. The Holy Spirit gives testimony, is referred to by personal pronouns, and is called "Helper", in the Greek Parakletos. Now, I haven't don much Greek study. What I have been told about Parakletos, though, is that it is a very personal word, not something that would be used of an impersonal force or an image.
This euphemism can now be carried to this passage. Now, a euphemism does not change the character of that to which it refers, but presents it in an understandable way so that another point can be made. In this case the assurance that the disciples would not be abandoned.
quote:
Furthermore:
Romans 8:16, 26-27
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Again, we have the Spirit testifying on behalf of believers, not only that, but this passage shows the Spirit has a mind of His own, that the Father will know when the Spirit intercedes for us.
I do not think it shows "the Spirit has a mind of His own". I see it saying the Spirit of Adonai intercedes. Now, it might be difficult to understand how the Spirit of the Father can intercede to the Father for us. However, it is not uncommon for someone to say their spirit is getting in the way of disciplining an errant child. It is also difficult to understand how the Spirit and the Father can be Adonai. These cases, where there is the need to understand a difficult concept, is precisely the place where one uses a euphemism.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/6/2008 7:03:56 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/6/2008 7:00:36 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Another little tidbit - the Greek word for spirit is neuter. However, when referring to the Holy Spirit, the masculine definite article is used. Usually, mixing and matching genders between nouns and definite articles is a big no-no in Greek grammar, but the NT authors made an exception, at times, for the Holy Spirit.
This exception could speak to the difference between the impersonal spirit of greek phylosophy, from which the word comes and the personal Spirit of Adonai spoken of in the Scriptures.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/6/2008 9:49:37 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
This exception could speak to the difference between the impersonal spirit of greek phylosophy, from which the word comes and the personal Spirit of Adonai spoken of in the Scriptures.
Would you say we, as human beings, have a personal spirit?
quote:
Now, it might be difficult to understand how the Spirit of the Father can intercede to the Father for us. However, it is not uncommon for someone to say their spirit is getting in the way of disciplining an errant child.
Really? 'Cause I've never heard that.
Personally, I think you're stretching this Scripture further than its basic meaning allows. It does not make sense, in the context, to think of God interceding for us to God. It seems to me that you are fitting Scripture to your beliefs, instead of letting Scripture mold them for you.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/7/2008 1:17:07 AM
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prophet
Posts: 691
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I'm interested in seeing Sciptures that clearly identify the term Holy Spirit refering to a distinct individual and not a catch all euphemism for any representation of Adonai that would not generally be incorporated in the terms Infinite Personal Creator or Messiah incarnate?
here..........from the OT....all 3 person referred at the same time
Isaiah 48
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Shalom
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/7/2008 1:31:03 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1826
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I'm interested in seeing Sciptures that clearly identify the term Holy Spirit refering to a distinct individual and not a catch all euphemism for any representation of Adonai that would not generally be incorporated in the terms Infinite Personal Creator or Messiah incarnate?
There are a number of problems with your statement above:
1. "THe Holy Spirit" is not merely a "term" or a "euphemism". He is a Divine Person, just like the Father and the Son.
2. Within the Godhead, there are no "individuals" per se, since that is a term applied to human beings. There are three Divine Persons who are mysteriously distinct yet one God.
"
3. As to the Scriptures which establish that God the Holy Spirit is not only fully God but also fully distinct from the Father and the Son, there are numerous Scriptures. The clearest and most succint is Matthew 28:19. Notice that Jesus says "baptizing in the Name" (singular) then goes on to say "of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (three Persons). The words "ghost" and "spirit" are equivalent.
How can three persons have one name? That is only possible because that name is "LORD", or more properly YHWH (the Tetragrammaton) or "I AM THAT I AM".
As to "Infinite Personal Creator" -- the Father is the Creator, the Son is also the Creator, and the Holy Spirit is also the Creator". Yet we do not have three Creators, just One. You cannot separate the Holy Spirit from creation, since it was "the Spirit of God" who moved upon the face of the waters (Gen. 1:2). It may appear as though "the Spirit of God" is merely a "manifestation" or "representation" of the Father, until we compare Scripture with Scripture, and see that God the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person, called "the Comforter" or "the Paraclete" who was sent to the earth by the Father and the Son (Acts 2:17) after He ascended and was exalted (Acts 2:33).
As to "Messiah Incarnate" that would be an incorrect appellation. "The Word Incarnate" became the Messiah, also called Yeshua ha Mashiach or Jesus the Messiah. However the Word existed eternally with the Father long before He became incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:1-4).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/7/2008 7:55:59 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Would you say we, as human beings, have a personal spirit?
I do not think the greeks were correct. I don't think we are subject to the impersonal fates, but a personal creator who has created us in his image a living spirit.
quote:
quote:
Now, it might be difficult to understand how the Spirit of the Father can intercede to the Father for us. However, it is not uncommon for someone to say their spirit is getting in the way of disciplining an errant child.
Really? 'Cause I've never heard that.
Personally, I think you're stretching this Scripture further than its basic meaning allows. It does not make sense, in the context, to think of God interceding for us to God. It seems to me that you are fitting Scripture to your beliefs, instead of letting Scripture mold them for you.
You left out the difficulty with understanding the other view. Is this because you believe it is easy to understand the idea the creator and His spirit being two entities. Something that confuses things even more is the various ways in which Adonai has manifest Himself in the Scriptures, if it is necessary to identify Adonai's Spirit and a seperate "person", wouldn't it then require us to identify which person each of these manifestations are? It does not appear as simple as one would think.
Regarding the example, I have known of examples of a mother being reluctant to discipline a child because it greaved her spirit. Also, Paul speaks of the spirit warring against the flesh. Though we may say we are of two minds on something, we never thing of ourselves as two persons. When this is the case it is considered to be mental illness. So, it is not uncommon to speak of oneself as another person, when one wishes to differentiate between various behaviors of feelings.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/7/2008 8:31:48 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/7/2008 8:00:35 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
here..........from the OT....all 3 person referred at the same time
Isaiah 48
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
I'm not sure the phrase, "now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me" necessitates a distinct differentiation between the two. This could be the the prophet was not only sent by Adonai's authority, but also with His motivation.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/7/2008 8:36:22 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/8/2008 5:11:49 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
That is not necessarily the case. When something or someone is refered to there need not be a total division. One can refer to two distinct parts and then refer to the rest. A bucket of water may have two ice cubes in it. The only thing in the bucket is H2O. However, one can say the bucket contains a large ice cube, small ice cube and water. Of course, the ice cubes are also water, but we do not call them that so we can note that they are ice cubes.
You have come up with a logical equivalent that offers an alternate understanding of the verse, but you have failed to see if that alternate explanation still fits with scripture! In your analogy, Matt 28:19 is roughly saying "in the name of the Father, the Son and in God in general." Now, is "God in general" personal or impersonal? If we say that the Holy Spirit is personal (having the qualities of a person: a mind and the ability to think, a will, etc.) then we must decide if the person of the Spirit is the same or other from the Father and the Son. If the Spirit is the same as one or the other, then we run into the problem that there is no reason to list that one twice, but not the other. If the Spirit is some person that is somehow both Father and Son, then we must wonder why the Spirit is sent by the Father, if the Spirit is over both the Father and the Son.
With "God in general" ruled out as personal, it must then be impersonal, just the power of God, substance without thought of it's own. Though this theory is very popular among false teachers (who are known to be false for other reasons), it does not line up with scripture. Especially your explanations of the other verses!
So, in summation, your alternate understanding does not stand up to comparison with the whole of scripture!
quote:
This passage doesn't appear to make the point clear either, because it has mixed imagery. We have another that is with us forever, invisible and indwells us. Then the Messiah says He will come to us, will be invisible and will indwell us. There appears to be a parallel here. Therefore, we could have a euphemism that helps us to understand that the Messiah is now with us in another form.
quote:
This euphemism can now be carried to this passage. Now, a euphemism does not change the character of that to which it refers, but presents it in an understandable way so that another point can be made. In this case the assurance that the disciples would not be abandoned.
Yes, these passage do provide a paradox, but paradoxes are true. God is both I and We. God will indeed come and indwell us, and Jesus Christ is indeed God, but the Son is, none-the-less, not the Holy Spirit. Your idea that this is some kind of euphamism does not hold up with:
John 16:29
29His disciples said, "Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.
Yes, this is a two chapters later, but it's the same topic.
John 16:13-15
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. "
Jesus has been telling them of His plans to go to the Father, and for the Holy Spirit to come later. We have scriptures assurance that Jesus is not using figures of speech when talking about His relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Knowing this, we have no reason to believe that Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit in figurative language, either.
quote:
I do not think it shows "the Spirit has a mind of His own". I see it saying the Spirit of Adonai intercedes. Now, it might be difficult to understand how the Spirit of the Father can intercede to the Father for us. However, it is not uncommon for someone to say their spirit is getting in the way of disciplining an errant child. It is also difficult to understand how the Spirit and the Father can be Adonai. These cases, where there is the need to understand a difficult concept, is precisely the place where one uses a euphemism.
The passage says "The Spirit Himself". If the passage had simply said "the Spirit" you might have a point, but the passage definitively personifies the spirit. This is not only highly unusual, it is not matched in any of your other examples of a human dealing with their own spirit. Even when a person has internal conflict, they do not make references to "my spirit himself".
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/8/2008 6:56:37 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2120
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Something that confuses things even more is the various ways in which Adonai has manifest Himself in the Scriptures, if it is necessary to identify Adonai's Spirit and a seperate "person", wouldn't it then require us to identify which person each of these manifestations are? It does not appear as simple as one would think.
As I have told you many many times before, the persons of the triune God are NOT manifestations! The way that scripture talks about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is unlike how scripture talks about the burning bush, firey hand, the incarnation, tongues of fire, etc. It is because the Holy Spirit is spoken about in a way that these manifestations are not that leads us to recognize the Holy Spirit as a person of the triune God. In addition, because the various ways that God manifests are not spoken of in the same way, there is no pressing need to identify if any specific manifestation can be definitively linked to a specific person of the Godhead.
So, while it is easy to know that the incarnation is certainly the Son manifesting, and that the descending dove and flaming tongues are the Holy Spirit making Himself manifest, there is no need to know if it was one person of God manifesting in the burning bush, or if it was all three.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/8/2008 7:59:17 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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Amen, Figment - nicely put.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/8/2008 11:53:12 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
Is this because you believe it is easy to understand the idea the creator and His spirit being two entities.
I don't judge what is correct based on what's easy. I judge it based on Scripture.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Holy Spirit as an individual - 11/9/2008 7:01:50 PM
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prophet
Posts: 691
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
here..........from the OT....all 3 person referred at the same time
Isaiah 48
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
I'm not sure the phrase, "now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me" necessitates a distinct differentiation between the two. This could be the the prophet was not only sent by Adonai's authority, but also with His motivation.
First of all, its not the prophet saying this but the Lord.....there are THRee distinct individuals mentioned in the passage here.....the speaker(the Lord Redeemer), the Lord God and His Spirit......if the Lord has no purpose in individualising each of the personailities, why bother to speak as such?
And no, the word Spirit here is an individual in the hebrew. Its not a motivation....as you suggested.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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