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Honorific Titles? - 11/14/2008 1:06:55 PM
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rolling
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Matt. 23 seems to be a sound denounciation of the use of religious titles in front of our names. I have never heard a sermon on this subject which begs the question 'why not?'
Men seated in the upper seats of the synagogue/church is another can of worms, that none dare open/question, that tends to lead to a 2 class system, the upper and the lower. Is this scriptural?
The deeds of the Nicolaitans, Greek: Power over the people/laity, was also hated by Christ, which was the 2 class system.
Jesus also condemned this form of worldly authority in Matt. 20:25-28 yet the 'church' has been operating with this world's authority system for about 1700 years now. What say you? devon
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 11/14/2008 1:13:47 PM
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whitepoodle
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quote:
yet the 'church' has been operating with this world's authority system for about 1700 years now. What say you? devon
According to the NT church it should only really have elders who are to be overseerers and be like servants to the congregation, not power positions.
Institutional type of churches always end up being subject to human sinful desires and seem to generally get corrupted.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 11/14/2008 1:16:01 PM
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GodsMusic
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So catholic priest (Father), and the Pope (Most Holy Father) need to stop it.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 11/14/2008 1:26:37 PM
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rolling
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Not to mention pastor so and so or rev. so and so.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 11/14/2008 2:09:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whitepoodle
According to the NT church it should only really have elders who are to be overseerers and be like servants to the congregation, not power positions.
Institutional type of churches always end up being subject to human sinful desires and seem to generally get corrupted.
The New Testament does give these offices for the Church;
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
And chunks a couple of others;
(1Ti 3:1) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
and
(1Ti 3:8) Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
And of course Elders;
(Tit 1:5) For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
So these would be the leadership of the Church.
Special priveledges for these? Well maybe;
(1Ti 5:1) Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
and
(1Ti 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
and
(Heb 13:7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
(Heb 13:8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
So yes their is leadership appointed by God for the Church, and they are to be held in a certain esteem by the Church.
Now does that mean that we should use "Titles" etc. for them; I don't know. I only know that I refuse to be addressed by any title orther than my name; and in the New Testament the Scriptures does not use the titles when speaking about individuals.
I do think that many in their zeal to not recognize any authority in the Chruch other than Christ do tend to throw out the baby with the bath water.
The God given authorities as listed above have nothing to do with the "Nicolatians" or Lording it over the laity.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 11/14/2008 4:45:58 PM
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MrFribbles
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Personally, I would say a lot of it has to do with how a person uses their title. If someone is called, for example, "Pastor Mike," because that's just how people know them, then I have no problem with it. But if ol' Mike goes around insisting he be called "Pastor," and uses the authority of that title to inflate himself/lord it over others, then I would say that the title has become an idol.
Another thought: does this just apply to the Church, or does it spill over to those who have earned the title Dr. in front of their name?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 11/14/2008 8:52:18 PM
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rolling
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I believe the leadership in the body is more of setting an example and persuading through the teaching of the word. Jesus told His disciples not to lord it over His heritage and not to follow the worlds way of authority but rather be a servant, and not to seek to be served. Are we to honor those that do a good job? You bet..with double honor. But we are not to exalt a man above anyone else but rather we are to esteem those less comely parts with greater esteem. We have it backwards in some respects.I believe the world's exaltation and the 'gushing over one man' program has swallowed up the body of Christ whole.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 11/17/2008 9:52:25 PM
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e.barrett
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I'm on board with Mr Fribbles thoughts.
To me this falls into the category of "what is the intent of the title?" If it's to inflate yoursef or to build your ego than it's a sin. But if it's a way to communicate with people, or makes it easier for people to understand your role in an organization, I don't see a problem.
_____________________________
R3 - a blog devoted to understanding how to live out a life of faith
Visit it at www.r3blog.net
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 11/18/2008 10:14:09 AM
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rolling
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With total respect to your opinion, I do have a problem with religious titles. For one, I don't see anyone in the N.T. addressed with a title in front of their name.
Second, I believe it strengthens the 2 class system, the upper and lower, unintentional as it may be.
Third, I believe the 'heart of man is desperately wicked' so when you place a special title in front of an individual's name, this sets him, not only apart, but higher than the 'regular brethren'.
Pride will inevitably be a very real problem for that person, whether he or she is fully aware of it or not, unintentional as it may be.
Fourth, this 'setting up' of one or a few lends to the idea that these folks have a special ministry greater than others. The 'little non titled folks' will feel that these few or this 'one' is the chosen go -between for them and God. This is contrary to the clear word in 1Cor.12 where all the body parts were functional ministries 'in the gathering',[church service]. This scenario, unintentional or not, did relegate the 'body of Christ' into a mere audience while one or a few perform. This has been the case for about 1700 years now. This cannot be validated by the N.T. and Pauls injunctions for true organic 'body life'....in the gathering[church service]. I believe this was reenforced by the use of titles and the setting up of offices. Strong's concordance renders office as function, a total different animal than what we've been taught to believe.
Fifth, is probably the most important reason to not adorn our names with religious titles. 'Be not called rabbi' according to Strong's concordance renders the definition as 'titles of honor'. We are indeed to honor those that study the word and teach with double honor but that does not mean to elevate them into an office with a title. They are not to be served as the 'lords of this world who lord it over others' but they are to remain as servants to the body. Unintentional as it may be, we have exalted certain men/women into high 'anointed positions' that the word soundly condemns. Jesus condemns this practice soundly in Matt:23:
They love to sit at the head table at church dinners, basking in the most prominent positions, preening in the radiance of public flattery, receiving honorary degrees, and getting called 'Doctor' and 'Reverend.'
If I may add 'Pastor, Bishop, Elder, Apostle'.
8-10"Don't let people do that to you, put you on a pedestal like that. You all have a single Teacher, and you are all classmates. Don't set people up as experts over your life, letting them tell you what to do. Save that authority for God; let him tell you what to do. No one else should carry the title of 'Father'; you have only one Father, and he's in heaven. And don't let people maneuver you into taking charge of them. There is only one Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
11-12"Do you want to stand out? Then step down. Be a servant. If you puff yourself up, you'll get the wind knocked out of you. But if you're content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/17/2008 12:59:25 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
With total respect to your opinion, I do have a problem with religious titles. For one, I don't see anyone in the N.T. addressed with a title in front of their name.
Paul took pains to often call himself Apostle.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/17/2008 1:09:08 PM
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HardKnox
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Romans 12:10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/17/2008 6:01:04 PM
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His_will_i_am
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But Paul didn't call himself, 'Apostle Paul'. A humble person would never want nor need a title.
_____________________________
And he will restore the understanding of the ancestors to their descendants and turn the hearts of the descendants back to their ancestors lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/17/2008 8:52:48 PM
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drfuss
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quote:
The New Testament does give these offices for the Church;
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
drfuss: The offices/gifts listed above were among the group of elders that run the chruch. While I do not propose to return to a system of many equal elders to run the church, we should keep in mind that the multiple elders system (in churches with no Apostle) was the assumed system in the New Testatment.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 1:08:39 AM
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rolling
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If it is scriptural, I say let us return to the many elder system. It worked for them.One man in preemimence is wrong. 3John.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 8:27:10 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
If it is scriptural, I say let us return to the many elder system. It worked for them.One man in preemimence is wrong. 3John.
Even in a small rural church of, say, 20 or 30 in attendance? I grew up in such a church and, frankly, there wasn't a man in the group, aside from the pastor, worthy of respect in spiritual matters.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 8:40:01 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am
But Paul didn't call himself, 'Apostle Paul'. A humble person would never want nor need a title.
His usual greeting was to identify himself as "Paul, an apostle" and in one place, "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God."
In both letters to the Corinthians, in Ephesians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians he went to some trouble to defend his right to be called and treated as an apostle on par with other apostles, stating "no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles." His words, not mine.
Even Peter identified himself in his epistle as an apostle.
Biblical humility does not mean a person present himself as less than what God has called him to be. If a person is appointed as Ambassador, it would be insulting to the country he represents to introduce himself a, "I'm just an average joe with nothing of worth to say or represent," not to mention a false representation.
The "titles" we find in the NT are descriptive of servants, stewards, and ambassadors of Jesus Christ to His people. False humility does not serve the Lord well.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 9:52:18 AM
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drfuss
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drfuss: Jesus said not to call other Christians by elevated titles,
Matt. 23:7-12:
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Today, the terms Master, Rabbi and Father has been replaced in Protestant churches by Pastor and Reverend. I never address another Christian by a title instead of their name. Why? Jesus said don't do that.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 10:11:45 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: Jesus said not to call other Christians by elevated titles,
That is not what the passage says. Read the whole chapter in context. He was talking about the scribes and the Pharisees that had seated themselves in the chair of Moses and used their exalted titles to bring attention to themselves while living as hypocrites.
There are several titles that are clearly God-ordained in the NT. And the root words generally are those of servant leaders.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 10:44:09 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Today, the terms Master, Rabbi and Father has been replaced in Protestant churches by Pastor and Reverend. I never address another Christian by a title instead of their name. Why? Jesus said don't do that.
Please reconcile your statement with the verses quoted by RC in post #5 above because they appear to contradict yours.
Thanks
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 10:58:00 AM
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rolling
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quote:
Even in a small rural church of, say, 20 or 30 in attendance? I grew up in such a church and, frankly, there wasn't a man in the group, aside from the pastor, worthy of respect in spiritual matters.
The HEAD PASTOR was already in control. The rest simply did what was expected in this atmosphere.....nothing. It is bred in them from this top down control system.
Eutychus said in defence of honorific titles: His usual greeting was to identify himself as "Paul, an apostle" and in one place, "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God."
In both letters to the Corinthians, in Ephesians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians he went to some trouble to defend his right to be called and treated as an apostle on par with other apostles, stating "no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles." His words, not mine.
Even Peter identified himself in his epistle as an apostle.
Biblical humility does not mean a person present himself as less than what God has called him to be. If a person is appointed as Ambassador, it would be insulting to the country he represents to introduce himself a, "I'm just an average joe with nothing of worth to say or represent," not to mention a false representation.
I answer with: These were functions. Thank God for them. But still remains the fact that Jesus condemned honorific titles adorning one's name. Still you will not find one verse where a title is in front of a person's name. Leads to arrogance and 2 class division, when we are all one in Christ.
Eutychus said in defence of honorific titles: That is not what the passage says. Read the whole chapter in context. He was talking about the scribes and the Pharisees that had seated themselves in the chair of Moses and used their exalted titles to bring attention to themselves while living as hypocrites.
I answer with: What do 'PASTORS do today? All eyes are on them as they are seated on a podium generally in a reserved chair. If you don't believe me, try sitting in that exalted chair before service begins. All attention on that wonderful 'man'.
< Message edited by rolling -- 12/18/2008 11:08:32 AM >
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 11:00:10 AM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: Jesus said not to call other Christians by elevated titles,
That is not what the passage says. Read the whole chapter in context. He was talking about the scribes and the Pharisees that had seated themselves in the chair of Moses and used their exalted titles to bring attention to themselves while living as hypocrites.
There are several titles that are clearly God-ordained in the NT. And the root words generally are those of servant leaders.
drfuss: I suspect the Pharisees would use the same reasons for wanting to be called by elevated titles as ministers (who want to be called by elevated titles) would today. Jesus not only talked about the Pharisees, but he also said don't address other Christians by elevated titles.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 11:06:49 AM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
I answer with: These were functions.
And Pastor is a function, so that would make me Pastor Ben.
Do you listen to yourself talk?
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 11:07:26 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2061
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
quote:
Even in a small rural church of, say, 20 or 30 in attendance? I grew up in such a church and, frankly, there wasn't a man in the group, aside from the pastor, worthy of respect in spiritual matters.
The HEAD PASTOR was already in control. The rest simply did what was expected in this atmosphere.....nothing. It is bred in them from this top down control system.
Sorry, but I've never been in a single church where the pastor was in control. He led but the church had to agree to follow. There have been many occasions when the pastor wanted to go a certain way but the church disagreed. A real pastor is not a dictator and church members are not his servants - we are all servants of Jesus with different roles.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 11:07:31 AM
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drfuss
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
Today, the terms Master, Rabbi and Father has been replaced in Protestant churches by Pastor and Reverend. I never address another Christian by a title instead of their name. Why? Jesus said don't do that.
Please reconcile your statement with the verses quoted by RC in post #5 above because they appear to contradict yours.
Thanks
drfuss: No reconciling is needed. We are talking about two different things. RC's scriptures are talking about gifts to the church and positions in the church. Jesus is talking about how we address another Christians when talking directly to them. Rather than address them as Pastor or Reverend, call them by their name just like you would call any other Christian. We are all Brothers and Sisters in the Lord.
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RE: Honorific Titles? - 12/18/2008 11:11:58 AM
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rolling
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: rolling
I answer with: These were functions.
And Pastor is a function, so that would make me Pastor Ben.
Do you listen to yourself talk?
I am a machine operator. But please don't call me 'MACHINE OPERATOR DEVON'.
Titles lead to arrogance and control and a one man show. Not scriptural.
Eutychus in defence of titles that Jesus condemned: Sorry, but I've never been in a single church where the pastor was in control. He led but the church had to agree to follow. There have been many occasions when the pastor wanted to go a certain way but the church disagreed. A real pastor is not a dictator and church members are not his servants - we are all servants of Jesus with different roles.
I answer with: I have never been in any church where I can stand up when the Spirit prompted me, 1Cor12 and 14, and speak 'Thus saith the Lord'. I tried it once and got brow beat in the dreaded 'back room' by guess who? The titled, higher seated, in control 'PASTOR.' Sounds like control to me.
Like tithes, please show us any reference where Paul addresses any of his letters to Pastor Wonderful or Rev. Onthetake [smile] or maybe Dr. Rod Inhand.[still smiling]. He did address a plurality of elders in 1Peter5:1, but still no single person was ever addressed as Elder Luke Atme[R U still smiling?]
Paul the apostle or an apostle denoting his function to the body of Christ but try as you may, you're search will not yield an 'Apostle Paul.' Maybe in books but not in The Book.
< Message edited by rolling -- 12/18/2008 11:39:01 AM >
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