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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/2/2005 2:35:58 PM
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thematrix
Posts: 7
Joined: 4/25/2005
Status: offline
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The matrix movie has no bearing on my beliefs or the Word of God.
It is a movie, not real life. However, I found that it was interesting
much like Star Wars and Indiana Jones. They tried to use biblical
elements in creating the movie.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/2/2005 6:22:27 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thematrix
I am not Lutheran.
My mother goes to a Lutheran bible study, where they do not push all Lutheran doctrine at her. However, I did make my mother aware that Lutheran baptism, much like Catholic baptism is unbiblical because they use is as a part of salvation concerning original sin. Not merely for dedication (unbiblical) of a child as some claim. Not all Lutheran churches may believe that unbiblical teaching about infant baptism.
Matrix,
(For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to assume that you are male. Forgive me if you are not)
I suspect that your father called you his son long before you were able to declare (or confess) him to be your dad. His (your human father's) constancy in calling you his, I suspect played no small part in the development of your identity as the son of (whatever your father's name is). Baptism needs to be understood in a similar fashion. Jesus commanded baptism as part of the process of making disciples. Jesus commanded established disciples to baptize those being made disciples. Somehow, this has gotten twisted around to be understood that established unbaptized disciples are supposed to seek / request baptism when they reach a certain capability to make a confession of faith. This shifting of responsibility from the established disciples to baptize newbie disciples to newbie disciples initiating being baptized is totally without biblical support--and yet it is emotionally declared by ever so many.
In Baptism, God is calling you his child in much the same way as your biological father called you his child. He does so well before you can appreciate the significance of being His. In the case of an infant, he does so well before the infant can appreciate the significance of even being someones biological child. You should not discard the importance of this declaration and change of relationship upon the development of faith. Who or what would you be if your biological father never claimed you as his or waited for you first to declare him to be your father before he'd ever called you his son? You would think him a cold and heartless man if your confession of him was a prerequiste to his calling you his son. Our God is not that way. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. While we were yet unable to call upon him, He in Baptism called us his own. Until you understand this aspect of Baptism--that God is the actor and we are the recipients-- I fear you've missed the point of Baptism entirely.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/2/2005 9:45:44 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe the last pope was saved, and I make that judgment on the same basis I don't believe those who teach and hold doctrines that are against God are saved... I say that understanding that the pope claimed Christ, yet that doesn't mean much when you are neck deep in idolatry and doctrines that end up actually deny Christ... Just because someone is religious it doesn't mean they are of God, and or saved... Muslims are very religious, yet they are doomed, even if the last pope and his church believe they worship the same god together...
Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit.
That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's.
If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith?
In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith.
I understand your anger at those who condemn JP II. However, your post implies a salvation by works. What JP did in this life has no bearing on how he will fair eternally. If JP II was depending upon all of his good works to ensure his salvation, then he is --as Scripture clearly declares-- lost. If JP II was depending upon what Christ has done for him for his salvation, then I expect to chat with him in Heaven. It is that simple.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/3/2005 7:03:26 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe the last pope was saved, and I make that judgment on the same basis I don't believe those who teach and hold doctrines that are against God are saved... I say that understanding that the pope claimed Christ, yet that doesn't mean much when you are neck deep in idolatry and doctrines that end up actually deny Christ... Just because someone is religious it doesn't mean they are of God, and or saved... Muslims are very religious, yet they are doomed, even if the last pope and his church believe they worship the same god together...
Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit.
That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's.
If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith?
In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith.
I understand your anger at those who condemn JP II. However, your post implies a salvation by works. What JP did in this life has no bearing on how he will fair eternally. If JP II was depending upon all of his good works to ensure his salvation, then he is --as Scripture clearly declares-- lost. If JP II was depending upon what Christ has done for him for his salvation, then I expect to chat with him in Heaven. It is that simple.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
Dear NIF,
Unless my bifocals are out of whack, didn't GoodMe talk about John Paul II putting his Faith first?
On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/3/2005 7:28:05 AM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit.
That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's.
If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith?
In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith.
Dear NIF,
Unless my bifocals are out of whack, didn't GoodMe talk about John Paul II putting his Faith first?
On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
SDAW,
These are the things that GoodMe talked about:
gives up having a family and a personal agenda
serve God and the Church
taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist
a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered
confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right"
is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit
we should all put Faith first in our lives like that
a great example of a strong Faith
aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's
What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith
Do you see in these any mention of depending upon Christ and what He has done to atone for our sins? Pick any one phrase from the post that speaks to this highlight it for us. This is a forum about Salvation and Catholisim not about the many fine works of JP II. By his works, JP II will not be saved. The unfortunate fact is, if JP II is saved, GoodMe didn't say why. That is one reason why Prots question C teachings about salvation. Truthfully, how can I tell from GoodMe's post that he or she has a solid grasp of the way of salvation?
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/3/2005 8:53:07 AM
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meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
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"I understand your anger at those who condemn JP II. However, your post implies a salvation by works. What JP did in this life has no bearing on how he will fair eternally. If JP II was depending upon all of his good works to ensure his salvation, then he is --as Scripture clearly declares-- lost. If JP II was depending upon what Christ has done for him for his salvation, then I expect to chat with him in Heaven. It is that simple. "
Salvation is ONLY throught the Grace of Jesus Christ.
It is faith in the person of that salvific act which impels us to live a life of service, devotion and love of one for the other. These are the "works" commanded by Christ Himself and without which our faith is dead.
A dead faith is no good at all.
But, beyond that what we DO with what we have in this life has EVERYTHING to do with how we "fair eternally".
Which was the servant that was approved by the returning master?
The one who DID the most with the talents (money) he was given - those are "works".
Behind those "works" the parable tells us the servant's motivation.
There is no question that God's GRACE is FREELY given for our salvation. The question becomes what we do with that salvation.
Do we sit back in our assurance of salvation of God's work - or do we do the work commanded - do we toil in the vineyard of the Lord, do we give meat, and sinew, and muscle and blood to that skeletal salvation by faith "alone".
The point of the post was missed in your reply - NOBODY undertakes such service for the Glory of God unless motivated by God.
There were many in the parable spoken by Christ himself who considered themselves saved by virtue of their belief in Christ and having the right doctrine and preaching and prophesying - they were SURE, but surprised , when cast out of the presence of God because they did not DO the "works" commanded by Christ.
Faith without works is dead.
Dead faith is not saving faith.
Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough unless we DO those works and answer that call He Himself has given us. IOW if you truly love God you will DO as he commands.
Peter do you love me?
Yes Lord.
Feed my lambs.
Peter do you love me?
Yes Lord.
Feed my lambs
Peter do you love me?
Yes Lord, you know I love you.
Feed my sheep.
If you have truly loved and served God in this life, then I fully expect to chat with you in the next.
Regards,
Meep meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/3/2005 11:54:56 AM
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afroshaman
Posts: 2
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Kansas City
Status: offline
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I grew up in a southern baptist environment, but am slowly coming to the realization that Catholicism might offer a healthier view of salvation than many of those in Protestant circles present. Protestants tend to emphasize the fact that it is only through Grace that we are saved (and Catholics hold this as well) and put much weight on the fallen state of man, the problem of evil in the world. But Catholicism continually reminds us that just as there is a problem of evil there too is a 'problem' of good. Jesus' image of the Vine and the Branches is extremely helpful in presenting a healthy view of ourselves and the world, not merely as fallen and evil but as good too. The Protestants emphasize that it is only through the Vine that the Branches can bear fruit, whereas the Catholics reply is this: It is true that it is through the Vine that the Branches bear fruit, but can you imagine a grapevine without any grapes? This seems to me to be a much more balanced approach to Grace than that which is often taught in Protestant churches. The image of the Church as the Bride of Christ also presents an interesting picture of God's relationship the the Church and vice-versa, as marriage is a partnership, a mutual endeavor between two 'people'. The Protestant interpretation of God's grace makes the Bride, the Church, to be passive receivers of said Grace, whereas with Catholicism, the Bride is an active member of the marriage. Catholicism presents us with an image of God who considers human decisions and events as important, a God who makes beautiful use these human decisions and events, making redemption a gradual process rather than happening all in one lump as with Protestants, making our everyday lives ever more meaningful. The Bride is not to be a passive receiver of Grace, but an active participant through Christ in this glorious marriage! Who can conceive of a grapevine without grapes?!
_____________________________
"Quotations are useful in periods of ignorance or obscurantist beliefs." - Debord
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/3/2005 12:12:36 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit.
That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's.
If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith?
In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith.
Dear NIF,
Unless my bifocals are out of whack, didn't GoodMe talk about John Paul II putting his Faith first?
On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
SDAW,
These are the things that GoodMe talked about:
gives up having a family and a personal agenda
serve God and the Church
taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist
a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered
confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right"
is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit
we should all put Faith first in our lives like that
a great example of a strong Faith
aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's
What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith
Do you see in these any mention of depending upon Christ and what He has done to atone for our sins? Pick any one phrase from the post that speaks to this highlight it for us. This is a forum about Salvation and Catholisim not about the many fine works of JP II. By his works, JP II will not be saved. The unfortunate fact is, if JP II is saved, GoodMe didn't say why. That is one reason why Prots question C teachings about salvation. Truthfully, how can I tell from GoodMe's post that he or she has a solid grasp of the way of salvation?
Grace and Peace,
NIF
Dear NIF,
Didn't GoodMe say "we should all put Faith first in our lives like that?" He offered evidences of faith, not a definition.
On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/3/2005 12:20:56 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
quote:
ORIGINAL: GoodME
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't believe the last pope was saved, and I make that judgment on the same basis I don't believe those who teach and hold doctrines that are against God are saved... I say that understanding that the pope claimed Christ, yet that doesn't mean much when you are neck deep in idolatry and doctrines that end up actually deny Christ... Just because someone is religious it doesn't mean they are of God, and or saved... Muslims are very religious, yet they are doomed, even if the last pope and his church believe they worship the same god together...
Just curious to know what Faith practice teaches that a man that gives up having a family and a personal agenda and a career to serve God and the Church, including taking bullets from the gun of a terrorist to whom the Pope was a symbol of Christianity to be slaughtered - is somehow condemned? That this particular man would later confront that would-be assassin for the purpose of saying "hey, its all right" is an example of patience and charity that we could all model to our benefit.
That we should all put Faith first in our lives like that is a great example of a strong Faith and an aligning of personal desire and agenda with God's.
If John Paul II is doomed - we all are. What's the last "bullet" you took for your Faith?
In my opinion - you speak from the position of being grossly uninformed about John Paul II and about Faith.
I understand your anger at those who condemn JP II. However, your post implies a salvation by works. What JP did in this life has no bearing on how he will fair eternally. If JP II was depending upon all of his good works to ensure his salvation, then he is --as Scripture clearly declares-- lost. If JP II was depending upon what Christ has done for him for his salvation, then I expect to chat with him in Heaven. It is that simple.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
You do know that Scripture about God using the same measuring stick on you that you use on others, right?
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/3/2005 2:17:47 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
You do know that Scripture about God using the same measuring stick on you that you use on others, right?
Indeed I am! I am guilty of sinning against all of the commandments. If I had to depend upon my works, I would be without hope. Thanks be to God, that he sent his Son to take upon himself the punishement that I deserved and by his wounds, I am healed.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/3/2005 7:11:42 PM
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bekalc
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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Okay, let me put it to you this way.
Scripture says you can lose your salvation, over and over again. No where does it say a prayer and you will be saved, and hey you can do whaterver you want you'll still be saved. No, when Peter was asked what must we do to be saved Peter said : Believe and be baptized. So, they believed, but did something outward to show their believe. People were also told to repent, change their actions.
Paul himself states that Faith without love is nothing. So, i.e saying you have faith in Christ but not loving your neighbor, which is what James is discussing, means you have dead faith, and so you according to James are not Saved.
Jesus also said: If you love me keep my commandments.
The whole weight of scripture says that no one can say they have faith in Christ, but then choose to actively disobey Christ.
Now, of course we as Christians sins, but a real Christian will repent of those actions and at least attempt to change thier life because they love God. If you don't repent, your not a Christian.
This is what the Catholic Church teaches. The main issue between Luther and the Catholic Church was the issue of human response. The Catholics agree that salvation starts out with faith alone, and that it is from the grace of God alone. But, their issue was that there must be some form of human response. They heavily reject the doctrine of predestination, which says basically God chooses some and rejects others. That makes God the devil, and it baasically means He chooses to send people to hell. God says that he desires all people to come to him. It talks about seeking God and finding Him.
Now, according to the Catholic Church, the person is only able to respond to God becuase God's grace gave the human the ability to respond. Free will so it is in no way the person's own betterness that lets them respond. Now, the relationship between this is a major mystery and its really hard to explain and understand without falling into some heresy. But we know that there must be some form of cooperation, no matter how mysterious.. But the cooperation has to be understood that its only through the grace of God.
I think the best way to describe it is this: Humans would never seek God in and of themselves, God seeks them and calls them. God calls everyone, desires everyone. If you are seeking God it is because God has been calling him, and his Spirit is pulling at your heart. This call somehow in some meaningful way gives you the chance opportunity to respond to God. But, there must be some response on the person. But, you wouldn't even respond it if weren't for God's grace giving you the ability to respond in the first place.
A Catholic is told Faith and Works because they want to make it clear to the Catholic that its not just a merly verbal belief or assent. You have to respond to God in your life. You have to make an effort to be obediant to Him. You have a choice in the matter. And saying I believe but disobeying makes you not a Christian. However, I was told in Catholic school that Faith is the most important thing, and really the only thing we as Christians can do is their best. Yes, you screw up, but you can repent. (and when someone commits a mortal sin, they freely choose to reject God and put themselves in Hell. (Its only a mortal sin if you know before you do it that you are committing a mortal sin, and of your own free will do so. It's a free choice.) But, God loves you and at any time you can repent! And need to live a life of repentence.
So, you see Catholic doctrine does not tell Catholics: You must earn your salvation. It admits that Catholics sin, it tells them your not perfect, and you will mess up and if you repent God will forgive you. But it also freely tells Catholics that you cannot say a prayer and life a sinful life tommorrow. There are a lot of Protestants who ignore the scripture verses that talk about obeying God, and keeping his commandments. This kind of attitude is cheap grace not real grace.
I want to point out something about the person said to the mom at the Lutheran Church about baptism. If a person hated God and decided to be baptized then obviously the baptism doesn't counts. It's just water then...Even the Catholic church teaches their can be an ipediment.
But the Bible itself puts baptism right up there with salvation. Christ said to make disicples and baptize them, Peter said believe and be baptized! There was no altar call. People showed their belief in Christ by being baptized. So baptism because its a commandment is incredibly important because God makes it that way.
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/3/2005 7:19:09 PM
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meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
quote:
You do know that Scripture about God using the same measuring stick on you that you use on others, right?
Indeed I am! I am guilty of sinning against all of the commandments. If I had to depend upon my works, I would be without hope. Thanks be to God, that he sent his Son to take upon himself the punishement that I deserved and by his wounds, I am healed.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
You mix in your melange, the difference between the complete and sublime salvific work of God and His love expressed through His Son Christ - something which is immutable - with your own sinfulness.
God's salvation never changes but IF we accept that act then we must change, not merely assent, admit sinfulness, claim absolution and continue as before.
Where is one "working out" one's salvation if one admits the sin and continues to indulge in it - simply because actions and behaviors in seeking to serve God are seen as "works".
Where's the power? Where's the fruit?
Meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/3/2005 7:21:32 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meep meep
Salvation is ONLY throught the Grace of Jesus Christ.
It is faith in the person of that salvific act which impels us to live a life of service, devotion and love of one for the other. These are the "works" commanded by Christ Himself and without which our faith is dead.
True Faith is not the only thing that can impel an individual to a life of service as the life of Paul prior to his conversion so clearly demonstrates.
quote:
A dead faith is no good at all.
So what is your point? That has absolutely nothing to do with what has been stated. No one has accused JP II of having a dead faith. It has simply been pointed out that JP II's works are no guarantee that he was saved.
quote:
But, beyond that what we DO with what we have in this life has EVERYTHING to do with how we "fair eternally".
"Fair eternally" was a poor choice of words on my part. What we DO has absolutely nothing to do with our being justified before God. What we do in this life as nothing to do with your being declared righteous by God.
quote:
Which was the servant that was approved by the returning master?
The one who DID the most with the talents (money) he was given - those are "works".
Behind those "works" the parable tells us the servant's motivation.
There is no question that God's GRACE is FREELY given for our salvation. The question becomes what we do with that salvation.
Do we sit back in our assurance of salvation of God's work - or do we do the work commanded - do we toil in the vineyard of the Lord, do we give meat, and sinew, and muscle and blood to that skeletal salvation by faith "alone".
The point of the post was missed in your reply - NOBODY undertakes such service for the Glory of God unless motivated by God.
And this is where you are simply in error. People do undertake lives of service for other reasons than God's glory. No one has said the JP II did so. His works simply are not definitive proof of his being saved.
quote:
There were many in the parable spoken by Christ himself who considered themselves saved by virtue of their belief in Christ and having the right doctrine and preaching and prophesying - they were SURE, but surprised , when cast out of the presence of God because they did not DO the "works" commanded by Christ.
This must be a Catholic bible addition, because I can find nowhere that someone who is a believer is Christ ends up being surprised and cast out of the presence of God because they did not do the works commanded by Christ. Where do you find this?
quote:
Faith without works is dead.
Dead faith is not saving faith.
And works are not an automatic indication of saving faith. Take JW's as an example. They will provide you with hundreds of examples of service and charitable workds.
quote:
Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough unless we DO those works and answer that call He Himself has given us.
There is no "unless" in the Biblical formula of salvation. There are no verses that make salvation dependent upon the performance of works. There are only verses that speak to the relationship of works to true faith.
quote:
IOW if you truly love God you will DO as he commands.
I have no disagreement with this. I'm simply pointing out that just because someone appears to do the commands of God does not mean the person is saved.
SO tell me, does the Catholic Church teach a Works based plan of salvation or not? How do you understand it? How many works do you need to perform in order to be saved?
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: grab a doctrine here, grab there - 5/3/2005 7:35:14 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meep meep
You mix in your melange, the difference between the complete and sublime salvific work of God and His love expressed through His Son Christ - something which is immutable - with your own sinfulness.
Huh? I'm mixing what with who and where?
quote:
God's salvation never changes but IF we accept that act then we must change, not merely assent, admit sinfulness, claim absolution and continue as before.
When did I ever claim otherwise? I have not.
quote:
Where is one "working out" one's salvation if one admits the sin and continues to indulge in it - simply because actions and behaviors in seeking to serve God are seen as "works".
Who said anything about continuing to indulge in sin? I didn't. Are you changing topics here? Come back to the topic at hand. Do Catholiics teach that their works in some way justify them before God? If so, where is this taught? Actions and behaviors are works.
quote:
Where's the power? Where's the fruit?
Scripture clearly teaches that Faith expresses itself through love. It also clearly teaches that Faith justifies before God. You error when draw a connection between these two and claim that love justifies before God. This is not taught in Scripture.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/3/2005 8:01:03 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
quote:
ORIGINAL: meep meep
Salvation is ONLY throught the Grace of Jesus Christ.
It is faith in the person of that salvific act which impels us to live a life of service, devotion and love of one for the other. These are the "works" commanded by Christ Himself and without which our faith is dead.
True Faith is not the only thing that can impel an individual to a life of service as the life of Paul prior to his conversion so clearly demonstrates.
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A dead faith is no good at all.
So what is your point? That has absolutely nothing to do with what has been stated. No one has accused JP II of having a dead faith. It has simply been pointed out that JP II's works are no guarantee that he was saved.
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But, beyond that what we DO with what we have in this life has EVERYTHING to do with how we "fair eternally".
"Fair eternally" was a poor choice of words on my part. What we DO has absolutely nothing to do with our being justified before God. What we do in this life as nothing to do with your being declared righteous by God.
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Which was the servant that was approved by the returning master?
The one who DID the most with the talents (money) he was given - those are "works".
Behind those "works" the parable tells us the servant's motivation.
There is no question that God's GRACE is FREELY given for our salvation. The question becomes what we do with that salvation.
Do we sit back in our assurance of salvation of God's work - or do we do the work commanded - do we toil in the vineyard of the Lord, do we give meat, and sinew, and muscle and blood to that skeletal salvation by faith "alone".
The point of the post was missed in your reply - NOBODY undertakes such service for the Glory of God unless motivated by God.
And this is where you are simply in error. People do undertake lives of service for other reasons than God's glory. No one has said the JP II did so. His works simply are not definitive proof of his being saved.
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There were many in the parable spoken by Christ himself who considered themselves saved by virtue of their belief in Christ and having the right doctrine and preaching and prophesying - they were SURE, but surprised , when cast out of the presence of God because they did not DO the "works" commanded by Christ.
This must be a Catholic bible addition, because I can find nowhere that someone who is a believer is Christ ends up being surprised and cast out of the presence of God because they did not do the works commanded by Christ. Where do you find this?
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Faith without works is dead.
Dead faith is not saving faith.
And works are not an automatic indication of saving faith. Take JW's as an example. They will provide you with hundreds of examples of service and charitable workds.
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Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough unless we DO those works and answer that call He Himself has given us.
There is no "unless" in the Biblical formula of salvation. There are no verses that make salvation dependent upon the performance of works. There are only verses that speak to the relationship of works to true faith.
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IOW if you truly love God you will DO as he commands.
I have no disagreement with this. I'm simply pointing out that just because someone appears to do the commands of God does not mean the person is saved.
SO tell me, does the Catholic Church teach a Works based plan of salvation or not? How do you understand it? How many works do you need to perform in order to be saved?
Grace and Peace,
NIF
Dear NIF,
The late John Paul II would say, as a good Catholic, that he was justified by Faith. No one is justified by works. But I would say that a minimum of two works is required. Believe. repent. I'll give it some more thought.
On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/3/2005 8:20:00 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear NIF,
The late John Paul II would say, as a good Catholic, that he was justified by Faith. No one is justified by works. But I would say that a minimum of two works is required. Believe. repent. I'll give it some more thought.
On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
Indeed, I've read much of what you have written and I think you speak well the Catholic understanding of Salvation. I have no dispute with what you have said except I would not call belief and repentance works since both are gifts of God.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/4/2005 7:05:44 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: nowimfound
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ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear NIF,
The late John Paul II would say, as a good Catholic, that he was justified by Faith. No one is justified by works. But I would say that a minimum of two works is required. Believe. repent. I'll give it some more thought.
On the Feast of the Apostles Phillip and James
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
Indeed, I've read much of what you have written and I think you speak well the Catholic understanding of Salvation. I have no dispute with what you have said except I would not call belief and repentance works since both are gifts of God.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
Dear NIF,
I understand your not wanting to call belief and repentance works since both are gifts of God. I would call them works because, regardless of their origin, they do require an act of the will on the part of the believer. This should not be understood as negating the work of God in the case of the baptism of infants.
All supernatural works have the grace of God as their first cause. Therefore, as Paul said, we have no cause to boast, or to think our works obligate God to anything.
On the Feast of St. Florian
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/4/2005 9:33:17 AM
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meep meep
Posts: 89
Status: offline
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”True Faith is not the only thing that can impel an individual to a life of service as the life of Paul prior to his conversion so clearly demonstrates. “
Would you be so kind as to give us your definition of “true faith?”
Please, also tell me what is the scriptural model for “true faith”
(as opposed to “un” true faith.)
“…a life of service…?” Since when does murder, judgment and persecution of others ( Christian or otherwise) “clearly” demonstrate a life of service to God?
Remember Cornelius? (Acts 10) What could have moved him to almsgiving and good works? Was he “saved” before Peter came to him (and his household) and preached the Gospel?
“So what is your point? That has absolutely nothing to do with what has been stated. No one has accused JP II of having a dead faith. It has simply been pointed out that JP II's works are no guarantee that he was saved. “
There IS no guarantee. What we have is an expectation of salvation. It is called “faith” because we don’t really know until the very end when we are judged.
In the meantime, we live as we have been commanded, and while JPII’s works are no guarantee – they are manifestations of his profession of faith and belief.
Faith without works is dead.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Connect the dots.
"Fair eternally" was a poor choice of words on my part. What we DO has absolutely nothing to do with our being justified before God. What we do in this life as nothing to do with your being declared righteous by God. “
Our salvation is only through Grace. But what we do has EVERYTHING to do with whether or not we take that freely given salvation and appropriate it for ourselves.
What are you here for?
What is the reason for your existence here?
WHEN are you declared righteous?
When is that “magic” moment?
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Which was the servant that was approved by the returning master?
The one who DID the most with the talents (money) he was given - those are "works".
Behind those "works" the parable tells us the servant's motivation.
There is no question that God's GRACE is FREELY given for our salvation. The question becomes what we do with that salvation.
Do we sit back in our assurance of salvation of God's work - or do we do the work commanded - do we toil in the vineyard of the Lord, do we give meat, and sinew, and muscle and blood to that skeletal salvation by faith "alone".
The point of the post was missed in your reply - NOBODY undertakes such service for the Glory of God unless motivated by God.
”And this is where you are simply in error. People do undertake lives of service for other reasons than God's glory. No one has said the JP II did so. His works simply are not definitive proof of his being saved.”
What do you consider “definitive” proof, i.e. such that would satisfy you, since we cannot read a person’s heart.
“People” may undertake lives of service for reasons other than God’s glory because
they may not know God – but God has written that good on their hearts. But we were talking about someone who spent his entire productive life declaring the Gospel, guarding the faith, putting his life on the line in more than one instance, living the message of Christ in denying self – all of these are reasonable signs and fruit that God is operating in a person’s life. I leave the authenticity of a person’s salvation and definitive proof to God.
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There were many in the parable spoken by Christ himself who considered themselves saved by virtue of their belief in Christ and having the right doctrine and preaching and prophesying - they were SURE, but surprised , when cast out of the presence of God because they did not DO the "works" commanded by Christ.
”This must be a Catholic bible addition, because I can find nowhere that someone who is a believer is Christ ends up being surprised and cast out of the presence of God because they did not do the works commanded by Christ. Where do you find this? “
I’m sorry…I thought ALL Bibles contained Matthew chapter 25. Perhaps you could get a “Catholic” Bible and start reading about halfway through the chapter.
Of course, it’s possible it, too, was removed from non “Catholic” bibles since it contradicted newly developed doctrine.
Faith without works is dead.
Dead faith is not saving faith.
”And works are not an automatic indication of saving faith. Take JW's as an example. They will provide you with hundreds of examples of service and charitable workds. “
While I do not endorse the JW doctrines, who are you to say who God will choose to be damned? Reconsider the example of Cornelius.
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Trusting and believing in Christ is not enough unless we DO those works and answer that call He Himself has given us.
”There is no "unless" in the Biblical formula of salvation. “
There IS no “biblical formula” - God is Spirit and he does not follow “formulas” let alone those made by man – whatever it is that you’re saying means.
“There are no verses that make salvation dependent upon the performance of works. There are only verses that speak to the relationship of works to true faith. “
Our salvation is ONLY by God’s Grace through faith. One may have received the free gift of salvation through Grace but it operates in our lives – from the beginning- through faith.
Scripture tells us faith without works is dead. If it is a dead faith then God’s saving Grace does not/cannot operate in our lives.
When Jesus commands those who failed to do the works of mercy in Matthew 25 to depart from him, was he sending them to summer camp or were they being condemned to perdition?
Read Jesus’ words carefully, His commands to do “works” are quite instructive.
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IOW if you truly love God you will DO as he commands.
”I have no disagreement with this. I'm simply pointing out that just because someone appears to do the commands of God does not mean the person is saved.
Neither does a recitation of a “sinners” prayer mean one is saved.
”SO tell me, does the Catholic Church teach a Works based plan of salvation or not? How do you understand it? How many works do you need to perform in order to be saved? “
The Catholic Church teaches that we are “saved” by God’s GRACE through faith, and that faith is manifested and our salvation accomplished by serving and loving our fellow man as commanded by our Lord Himself. In this way we love and serve God in this world so that we may spend eternity with Him in the next.
Is that formulaic enough for you?
How many works?
I don’t know. How much of our lives can we give to God? The more we strive to love and please God – the more we allow His will to be done in us and through us, the more Grace fills us and the closer we come to being Christ-like – the measure of true salvation.
Like Paul the Apostle we strive daily, we run the race so that we may finish as victors.
In Christ,
Meep meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/4/2005 11:35:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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I've read through your posts and the answers that have provided so I'll try not to rehash what has already more than aptly been posted.
I gather from your comments that you profess to be a follower of Christ - thus, I must take you at your word, although I am unable to see what fruits you bear, given the medium we use to communicate.
Speaking out against the pope and his church is bearing fruit were I'm from....
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However, you apparently choose to ignore parts of scripture that are not to your liking. You may want to read, once again Romans chapter 10. Specifically, you might want to focus on verses 6 and 7 although the whole chapter is instructive.
You should consider Matthew 7:21....
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I never heard JPII deny Christ. On the contrary, had you read ANYTHING he wrote without that big fat beam in your eye  you would see the exact opposite; AND, we have his fruits as a pretty good indication of who he served.
Of course you removed YOUR own beam prior to posting this?(That's always the problem with using the beam verse...) Btw, what fruits are you speaking of?
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YET, only God knows his heart, only God knows whether or not he will continue to serve in heaven.
If people can judged the pope to be saved, it's hypocritical to say it's wrong to judge otherwise... Either we | | |
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