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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 12/20/2007 7:53:53 AM
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rwe2156
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Doctrinally Washer is a staunch Calvinist.
As such (and correctly) he sees salvation as God's business
and something we receive, rather that something we decide we want.
But most importantly Washer teaches us if we say we are a duck,
we should quack, waddle and swim in the pond...
..at least occasionally
..and more and more as we grow in our "duckness".
The "free grace" adherents do not like this and will accuse people
lke Washer of promoting a works-based salvation.
They think sanctification is spiritual growth and we can be saved with
a dead faith. They must understand when we receive the Holy Spirit (saved),
God begins a work in us (sanctification) that He will see through to completion (glorification).
See Phil 1:6.
But the free-grace people must inevitably deal with the fact that if
there is no root there is no fruit, and if there is no fruit, that branch
will be cut off and thrown in the fire.
I love Washer's description of American Christianity:
3,000 miles wide and 1/2 inch deep.
If you like Washer, check out Jim Eliff at http://ccwonline.org
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 12/20/2007 7:38:37 PM
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Yoelnatan780
Posts: 102
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this seems very interesting, i will be back as soon as i listen to some of his teachings...should i even bother?
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 12/20/2007 7:46:56 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mighty2save780
this seems very interesting, i will be back as soon as i listen to some of his teachings...should i even bother?
Yes, it is definitely worth a listen.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 12/20/2007 8:11:54 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Sammy S rwe2156, I thought that you were a pure free-will ambassador lol..
Where exactly do you stand?And as for Jim Ellif,i will definately check him out,
I have been hearing a lot about him.
You misunderstand my theology. I don't understand it myself!!
Let me start by admitting I know my theology is bad.
I believe the Bible says salvation is intended for all men. The Bible says
God desires all men to be saved. And I believe all men are potentially saved in Christ.
Now before you cry "universalist", only those who believe are saved.
As for Free Will, I put the blame for man not believe right where it belongs: man and his
proud, arrogant, obstinate heart, not the whimsical, fickle God many Calvinists portray.
That being said, what attracts me about Paul Washer and calvinist theology is that it teaches
salvation is of God, and destroys the false gospel we see preached today
in America where people walk around thinking they are saved based on a past decision
when there lives are out of control, they know nothing of the Spirit, and the only difference
between them and the world is where they park their cars on Sunday at 11 AM!!!
For the record, I reject uncondition election and limited atonement as unbiblical
doctrines that I would never derive from a simple reading of God's Word.
I understand the concept of total depravity but disagree with what the hyper-calvinists
have turned it into annd the westminister confession that denies this doctrine makes
God the author of sin by simply saying it isn't so.
As for perseverance of the saints: Oh, I embrace this doctrine, but look
at what has been done to it by turning it into Once Saved, Always Saved
when what is really means is Once Saved, Always Persevering.
Here are a couple examples of the "tensions":
Free Will <---------------->Predestination
Security of the Believer<--------------->Warnings to Persevere
Man's Choice<----------------->God's Sovereignty
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 12/20/2007 9:46:30 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
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quote:
That being said, what attracts me about Paul Washer and calvinist theology is that it teaches
salvation is of God, and destroys the false gospel we see preached today
in America where people walk around thinking they are saved based on a past decision
when there lives are out of control, they know nothing of the Spirit, and the only difference
between them and the world is where they park their cars on Sunday at 11 AM!!!
 ,i could'nt agree with you more so on this.You are a Paul Washer fan so you are cool in my books..lol..
quote:
For the record, I reject uncondition election and limited atonement as unbiblical
doctrines that I would never derive from a simple reading of God's Word
The problem is that,you are contradicting yourself over here.If you agree that it is God who saves,then why arent all men saved?Because he chose whom to save=Uncoditional Election and Limited Atonement to some agree.
To be honest with you,understanding total depravity,perseverance of the saints and the fact that it is the Lord who saves and not some choice of the man is what is important in my opinion.
i listened to Paul's message titled:"The Acropolis of the Faith" last night and it is a classic.He is by far my favourite preacher.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 12/22/2007 7:18:16 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
If you agree that it is God who saves,then why arent all men saved?
Because he chose whom to save=Uncoditional Election and Limited Atonement to some agree.
My theology is this: all men are not saved because not all men will believe.
But all men are potentially saved in Christ's completed work on the cross.
Salvation is available to all, but it is man who refuses.
I don't see this as a black and white issue.
I know my theology is faulty. I try to live between the tensions of
free will and predestination/election, both of which are biblical.
I have done word studies on foreknowledge, predestination, election,
world, all, everyone, etc.
The only answer I have found is that our election is based on God's
foreknowledge that we will believe. I know that's probably shaky,
but it is the light I walk in right now.
It appears you think it is either selection or universalism. I disagree.
quote:
To be honest with you,understanding total depravity,perseverance of the
saints and the fact that it is the Lord who saves and not some choice of the man
is what is important in my opinion.
AMEN, AMEN!
I think this will bring revival.
Guys like Washer and Eliff are leading the way.
Its already starting. I read where 30% of SBC seminary graduates
consider themselves Calvinist in theology. The SBC is rediscovering
its roots in Calvinism and Albert Mohler is a big C-man.
I hope they don't preach too much about God's selective grace ;-),
but I hope they will drive home the concepts you mention here.
Christ died for you, me and the whole world and we are commanded
to bring the good news to the world.
Peace and grace.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 1/4/2008 5:26:13 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
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From: Brampton,Ontario
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I heard Paul Washer mention in one of his sermons that he is a 4.5 calvanist does anyone know what he disagrees with?I know that a 4.5 doesn't seem to be that different from a 5 point calvanist but I would like to know.I agree with everything from the TULIP though I do need a bit more time to be 100% clear on all subjects.
The sermon may have been as long as about 3,4 years ago so I do not know if he still stands on what he said but can anyone clarify a bit what ecactly a 4.5 calvanist is?
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 1/4/2008 8:13:21 PM
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stephanos
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Im not 100% sure about Pastor Paul Washer, but most so called 4.5 or 4 point Calvinists usually take issue with Limited Atonement.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/11/2008 5:40:10 PM
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samspot7
Posts: 3
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i like paul washer...but its the pendulum swinging the other way...maybe to an extreme....the bible does say its God's kindness that leads us to repentence....there is no mention of hell in acts where the church is birthed and grows exponentially, and Jesus hung out with whores, tax collectors and general naredowells for a large part of his ministry...even called a glutton and a winebibber by the holy pharisees at one pt....BUT washer helps emphasize the price that was paid by Jesus and how holiness/righteousness is a big deal...which is very good...BUT we cant be righteous..its only as we reckon ourselves dead and let the Spirit live in and thru us that righteousness comes about....OUR righteousness, as the pharisees righteousness...is of filthy rags...not sure thats the goal...anywho..
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/13/2008 3:52:42 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 537
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What I wouldnt give to see Paul washer preaching in Joel Osteens Church for a week long evangelistic meeting. Complete with TV coverage and all.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/14/2008 10:51:32 AM
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FREELUTH
Posts: 102
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
What I wouldnt give to see Paul washer preaching in Joel Osteens Church for a week long evangelistic meeting. Complete with TV coverage and all.
John
Never will happen but I would love to see where that lead !!!!!!
_____________________________
My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 2/23/2008 11:11:39 PM
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mickeylax_07
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Joined: 2/23/2008
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I really admire this guy for preaching the true Word of God and not being afraid of the truth. I do admit that he is a little intense, but he does it out of love. I know sometimes it seems like he's saying works earn salvation, but that's not what he's really saying if you listen to everything he says. He's saying a true believer is someone who is radically changed from the moral depravity they were in. It's like he said, a believer becomes saved when he realizes that he/she is so so utterly sinful and that without God they cannot have a life that's worth living. It's not just about going to heaven or not, it's about living a life for a God who loves us so very much that he provides a way for us to become saved. Faith is admitting that we're wrong and that we need the strength of Jesus Christ in order to do his will and receive the Holy Spirit. It's not even about what we can do for God, it's about responding to what God has done for us, which is that he has SAVED OUR LIVES FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION!!! Everytime I think about that it fills me with so much joy. Yes we all make mistakes, and we might even be in a pit for a while. But being in a pit does not mean you're not saved. The point is to not worry about whether or not your saved, it's about living like you're saved. It's about living a life of salvation in order to express our love for a God who has saved us and to show him to others.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 3/1/2008 10:18:05 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
What I wouldnt give to see Paul washer preaching in Joel Osteens Church for a week long evangelistic meeting. Complete with TV coverage and all.
John
I would literally pay $1,000 to have that and see that happen.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/10/2008 7:18:47 PM
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skitrix1
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Can I reopen this conversation? I am a fan of Paul Washers but a friend doesn't like his blunt white or black style, way to harsh for them so can you look at this and help me debate this topic from the Paul Wahser POV? Or do they make some very valid points? I am sorry my biblical knowledge and understanding is on the low side due to my young age and past life laziness but I would like some help analyzing the points my friend my made. Anyone up to the task of helping me or pointing me in the right direction? Their points are made below...
Here's what we do know, what scripture and Jesus tell us about the topic
1. We are saved by grace, not works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 4:29)
2. Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord "will" be saved.
3. The thief on the cross didn't even do the "repentance thing." Instead, he just asked Jesus to remember him. Jesus acknowledged the heart of this thief and said he would bring him to paradise with him. There was no time for works or sanctification to be revealed in this man (or fruits for that matter).
4. We know that there will be some that claim to be sheep - but they are really not sheep but wolves.
5. We know that the farmer threw out seeds and some sprang up quickly but died off. So, we can't quickly judge someone as saved until we watch the growth in the soil. It must move past emotions. This leads to point 6:
6. We know that some will say that they "knew" Jesus, but he will say "depart from me, I didn't know you." I look at this as God saying, "It's all about a personal relationship with my Son. Not just lip service or rituals."
7. Jesus did say that the believer will have "fruits" to show this change (repentance) in their lives. For the rich young ruler, he was doing great with all of the commandments - but he was not "rich" towards God. From the Lord's response to this rich ruler, we sense that all was not well for this man as it pertained to heaven. Hence, he had a "form" of godliness, but not a heart of godliness. His money was his real passion - not God.
8. We must avoid this thought of receiving salvation - but later losing it. Can you imagine if each day you had to be "born again" over and over? If the prodigal son taught us anything about the Father above it is that children will (not "perhaps") go astray from time to time. But the Father waits patiently. Paul supports this notion in his own life in Romans 7. God is not going to remove you from his family. This is never taught.
9. In 2 Peter we learn that God is patient, not wanting "anyone" to perish, but for all to come to repentance. Bottom line, God wants "all" (not just partial) to know Him and to be in heaven. We've never locked eyes with anyone that Christ hasn't died for. Salvation is open to anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord.
KEY: False pious attitudes, all though great looking on the outside, is a deceptive evil. It compares and judges others to reach a certain moral acceptance. The Pharisees were great at this. If Washer is the judge of what a Christian should look like, he places himself dangerously close to this. However, for the new believer, we must disciple them so that they will grow up and become (conform) to the image of our Savior. We don't want to leave them as babies.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/11/2008 12:02:20 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 537
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Earthless: Hey, I would sit right there next to you, interceeding the whole time. Oh yea, 1000 would be fine, even after all the rest have left and we were the last two in the auditorium.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/11/2008 12:10:52 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
Gloryandgrace: Earthless: Hey, I would sit right there next to you, interceeding the whole time. Oh yea, 1000 would be fine, even after all the rest have left and we were the last two in the auditorium.
Make that the last three cause I would gladly pitch in for that church hear the truth.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/11/2008 12:20:01 AM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/11/2008 10:29:12 PM
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Propitiation
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/18/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
What I wouldnt give to see Paul washer preaching in Joel Osteens Church for a week long evangelistic meeting. Complete with TV coverage and all.
John
In one of his sermons he mentioned that he was invited to oral roberts university to preach during chapel time. I think he mentioned that someone came up to him after the sermon and said your one of those puritan guys. lol
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/12/2008 11:27:20 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 537
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:
In one of his sermons he mentioned that he was invited to oral roberts university to preach during chapel time. I think he mentioned that someone came up to him after the sermon and said your one of those puritan guys. lol
I would take that as a very high compliment to be associated with the puritans. In this day and age, to be called a puritan in my opinion is to be crowned.
Are you coming too Propitiation? So far we have 3 attending the Washer services
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/12/2008 11:31:31 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 537
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Skit:
I think youve got your own ammunitions by the post youve made. Paul is not arminian so you wouldnt be term-for-term preaching washerism, but you can speak what you know.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/13/2008 2:38:21 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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I'm sure he'd bill us later, though... plus interest. 
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 4/13/2008 6:35:58 AM
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Propitiation
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/18/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
quote:
In one of his sermons he mentioned that he was invited to oral roberts university to preach during chapel time. I think he mentioned that someone came up to him after the sermon and said your one of those puritan guys. lol
Are you coming too Propitiation? So far we have 3 attending the Washer services
John
You can count me in. I was checking out a website that someone posted on one of the sub forums. On the said websites forums they had a topic for false prophets. I checked it out and came to find out that it was about Paul Washer and they were disecting him for preaching a works based salvation. Here is the link if anyone would care to discuss. http://www.predestinarian.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4690
Personally I think they are taking what he is saying out of context and basing it off of pieces of sermons or just one sermon.
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