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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 6:50:15 AM
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cposey
Posts: 634
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quote:
What kind of "confession and repentance" says "Oh well, at least Jesus already died for me so I'm forgiven regardless of whether I ask or not"...
This is what i wanted to allude to. confession and repentance is not the same as asking for forgiveness. Specifically telling God what sins you have committed and then asking for help to turn your back on them, is not asking for forgiveness. Jesus was only crucified once and it is almost a mockery and shame to keep on asking for HIM to die for our sins to forgive us.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 6:52:45 AM
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cposey
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Liveloved and gralan, excellent points and those are great examples of forgiveness and how it applies to us.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 8:05:54 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5763
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
confession and repentance is not the same as asking for forgiveness. According to 1 John 1:9, God forgives us when we confess. According to Acts 2:38, God forgives us when we repent. Sure seems to me that all three are inextricably inte-related, irrespective of being "the same thing".
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 9:06:35 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 866
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Old covenant, YES; but also same blood. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think cposey wants his thread to go this direction. The Atonement of Christ was an historical event occurring in human time. Thus Christ's Blood had nothing to do with OT forgiveness! Let's stick with the subject, folks.
The Blood of Jesus has to do with ALL of mankind's forgiveness. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins. God ,through forbearance accepted the sacrifice of animals for the OT saints because he always had in mind the one sacrifice of his beloved Son, that would take away the sin of the world. Those were just the types of the real sacrifice that God himself would offer. The blood of Christ is for the Old and New Testament man. No man has ever been saved apart from the precious blood of the Lamb.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Now Before you excommunicate me (like you do in pretty much every thread  ) weigh out what I just said in light of scripture.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 11:42:57 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5763
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
No man has ever been saved apart from the precious blood of the Lamb. Okay, I guess we can agree to disagree on this issue too. Enoch and Elijah were certainly "saved" several hundred to a few thousand years before Jesus even had a drop of blood to shed!
quote:
Now Before you excommunicate me (like you do in pretty much every thread ) weigh out what I just said in light of scripture. I just did and your use of Scripture is sorely lacking in weight - see above...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 3:22:27 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 866
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
No man has ever been saved apart from the precious blood of the Lamb. Okay, I guess we can agree to disagree on this issue too. Enoch and Elijah were certainly "saved" several hundred to a few thousand years before Jesus even had a drop of blood to shed!
quote:
Now Before you excommunicate me (like you do in pretty much every thread ) weigh out what I just said in light of scripture. I just did and your use of Scripture is sorely lacking in weight - see above...
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for
Well before Elijah and Enoch were even alive, the lamb was foreordained for them, not just for them but all man kind.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
"No man" in the greek is oudeís (It literally means NOT EVEN ONE). Christ is the Only way for all men old and New testament.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 10:41:56 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5763
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God's plan of redemption was in place from the foundation of the world. The Lamb was slain in the spring of 30 AD give or take a few years.
quote:
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; God promised eternal life for all Believers before the world began. The Promise Himself came to fulfill this promise around 4 BC, give or take a few years.
quote:
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for St Peter explained this one for you in verse 21 if you would take the care to read the verses in context. The Atonement of Christ was foreordained but the actual manifestation of His Resurrection occurred in Peter's day.
quote:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Since Jesus spoke this in the present tense then no one since that point in time has come to the Father except through faith in Christ.
Are there any other Scripture passages you need me to interpret for you, Saved34?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/10/2010 11:04:27 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2108
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quote:
gralan
Perhaps, my brother and sister, there is a lesson from real life that can be used to illustrate this seeming dichotomy.
Thanks for your illustration. James says, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed." (v16)
James' counsel goes along with what David shares in Ps 32 when he says, "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away." The open confession of sin and the prayers of the faithful, the bearing the burdens of one another, bring the healing we all need.
I am indeed thankful that you and your wife experienced that healing. And BTW, I think this kind of truthful sharing is needed in the body so thank you for that openness.  LL
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/11/2010 9:13:14 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 866
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
God's plan of redemption was in place from the foundation of the world. I don't think you even realize what you just posted. If God's plan of redemption was in place before even the foundation of the world (well before Elijah, or any of the great men of faith were even born) doesn't it make sense to you that he had them in mind as well? There are no two ways to glory, there is only one way, and that redemption is for ALL man kind. God endured sacrificial lambs only in light of the fact that he would give hos Son as the one final gift offering for the World. I fully understand that Christ was manifested at a certain time in History, but his death,burial and resurrection was much more than a historical event, it was he who is THE Light, THE Life, THE truth, finally manifested to take away the sin of the world. With out that precious blood shed, without his glorious resurrection no man could come before God.
quote:
Since Jesus spoke this in the present tense then no one since that point in time has come to the Father except through faith in Christ.
This doesn't even make sense. Our Lord never talks in partiality, he talks in totality. I AM, ,I AM. You have to do violence to the text to add "at that point and time". That means that Christ lied, and technically there was some other means by which man could come to the Father.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
God had no pleasure in the offerings that the Old Testament saints offered, but he allowed them for a season, until the Son of God was finally manifested. Anything else is just a form of limited atonement. Our Lord's atonement is not limited to time.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/11/2010 9:23:40 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5763
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Thanks for your sincere and careful responses, Saved. I really do understand your position, I just believe it is wrong according to the historical timeline that God has orchestrated in mankind's physical reality.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/11/2010 3:41:47 PM
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frankman
Posts: 255
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Now Before you excommunicate me (like you do in pretty much every thread ) weigh out what I just said in light of scripture.
 I sure love your posts, so you won`t see me trying to excommunicate you. There is power in the blood. I just love the verses you are posting. Keep up the good work.
So let`s get back to the OP`s topic about forgiveness. Yet I have one question. How can we discuss forgiveness without always coming back to the subject matter of the blood while still being true to the Scriptures? Heb.9:22 reminds us "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."  So I apologize if the subject matter always goes from forgiveness to ---- blood. This can`t be helped, because forgiveness is only possible because of the blood.
Cposey- My point about King David was that it is only be believing that a future Messiah would one day come to die for his sins by shedding His blood that King David could receive forgiveness. You`ll see how this ties together with your question from Post#1. (How he knew about this yet future sacrifice I won`t get into now because it could divert this thread.) So for now just remember Heb.9:22. "and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." David was only forgiven because of the blood Christ was to yet future shed for him on the cross. Now I`d like to quote to you part of a verse "Saved34" quoted way back in Post#3. 1 John 1:7 "and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin." The same blood that purified King David also purifies us if we confess our sins. You are now saved if you believe and your confession is genuine.
Back to Post#1- "cposey"- "but after salvation and Jesus dying on the cross."  Has anything changed? Are Heb.9:22 and 1 John 1:7 not valid anymore? I know you know the answer. And we still haven`t found a way to delete that key word blood.
We are a forgiven people because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. If we ask for forgiveness after we`re saved because we sinned again Christ will always forgive us. If we`re serious we will seek to live a repentant lifestyle.  We fail Jesus. We fail others. Others fail us. So because Jesus blood was shed for us on Calvary`s cross we are forgiven. We want others we have failed to forgive us. If others have hurt us in a bad way, we should always be willing to forgive them also. Not because they deserve it, but because of the cross.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/11/2010 4:17:10 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2108
Status: offline
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quote:
We are a forgiven people because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. If we ask for forgiveness after we`re saved because we sinned again Christ will always forgive us. If we`re serious we will seek to live a repentant lifestyle. We fail Jesus. We fail others. Others fail us. So because Jesus blood was shed for us on Calvary`s cross we are forgiven. We want others we have failed to forgive us. If others have hurt us in a bad way, we should always be willing to forgive them also. Not because they deserve it, but because of the cross.
I like this. Although I again say we don't have to ask for forgiveness after we are redeemed. People can and do. God understands. But we are forgiven from the moment we first repent, turn toward God. We may sin and momentarily turn away but God does not turn. His forgiveness remains. It is available to us when we turn back and confess our sin. The blood continues to flow over me.\o/
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/11/2010 4:48:37 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2286
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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Liveloved,
I had been reading Bruce Larson books since about 1972 (I was 12), and was fascinated to discover he was the senior pastor of University Presbyterian Church in Seattle where my folks went to church. When I moved to Seattle in 1986 I went. I heard John R Stott preach, which was pretty cool. The whole staff were disciples of Christ and leaders in the Body. But Bruce Larson still caught my attention.
Bruce Larson was a pastor who exposed himself mentally, spiritually and emotionally in the pulpit. He was as authentic a person as I've ever met, humble and gracious a Christian leader in the Body of Christ for decades. It was awesome to go and hear the plea of Christ from him, and that authentic voice was Jesus speaking through Bruce.
I learned about forgiveness in real life situations, from my parents and also from listening to and reading real mentoring people expose themselves mentally, spiritually and emotionally (heart, mind and soul one might say). C.S.Lewis, John R. Stott, Elton Trueblood, J.I.Packer, Ravi Zacharias, Kenneth Working, Sid Corl, Henri Nouwen, Eugene Peterson, Dr. Donald Irwin, Tim Snow, and the list goes on and on.
The voice continues, it isn't a cult of personality regarding humans.
It's easy to identify the voice of Christ Jesus when you hear it often enough through the lips of other disciples. It comes through reading the Scriptures as well.
I hope there is a familial resemblance at least in the slightest degree to the Lord in whose image I and we are being conformed into.
As I closed my first sermon, I say again -- today, have you heard His voice? Have you heard more than me standing here talking?
Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me." Are you His sheep?
Baaa, sure yabetcha! 
Thanks for being my sister.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
gralan
Perhaps, my brother and sister, there is a lesson from real life that can be used to illustrate this seeming dichotomy.
Thanks for your illustration. James says, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed." (v16)
James' counsel goes along with what David shares in Ps 32 when he says, "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away." The open confession of sin and the prayers of the faithful, the bearing the burdens of one another, bring the healing we all need.
I am indeed thankful that you and your wife experienced that healing. And BTW, I think this kind of truthful sharing is needed in the body so thank you for that openness. LL
_____________________________
suffering servant, gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/11/2010 6:25:22 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5763
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
It is available to us when we turn back and confess our sin. This is confession and repentance! God's forgiveness is directly related to our attitude and behavior. You've now said this yourself, LL.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/12/2010 12:00:26 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2108
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It is available to us when we turn back and confess our sin. This is confession and repentance! God's forgiveness is directly related to our attitude and behavior. You've now said this yourself, LL.
What'cha sayin', drmark? I'm the Queen of confession and repentance! Now my more serious side. . . I'm always speaking of our need to be honest, truthful about ourselves, confessing and repenting of our sin.
This IS how we are to live. This IS how I live. What didn't you understand?
I live this way and I live in His forgiveness. I don't have to ask for it. It is mine.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/12/2010 12:05:41 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2108
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
Liveloved,
I had been reading Bruce Larson books since about 1972 (I was 12), and was fascinated to discover he was the senior pastor of University Presbyterian Church in Seattle where my folks went to church. When I moved to Seattle in 1986 I went. I heard John R Stott preach, which was pretty cool. The whole staff were disciples of Christ and leaders in the Body. But Bruce Larson still caught my attention.
Bruce Larson was a pastor who exposed himself mentally, spiritually and emotionally in the pulpit. He was as authentic a person as I've ever met, humble and gracious a Christian leader in the Body of Christ for decades. It was awesome to go and hear the plea of Christ from him, and that authentic voice was Jesus speaking through Bruce.
I learned about forgiveness in real life situations, from my parents and also from listening to and reading real mentoring people expose themselves mentally, spiritually and emotionally (heart, mind and soul one might say). C.S.Lewis, John R. Stott, Elton Trueblood, J.I.Packer, Ravi Zacharias, Kenneth Working, Sid Corl, Henri Nouwen, Eugene Peterson, Dr. Donald Irwin, Tim Snow, and the list goes on and on.
The voice continues, it isn't a cult of personality regarding humans.
It's easy to identify the voice of Christ Jesus when you hear it often enough through the lips of other disciples. It comes through reading the Scriptures as well.
I hope there is a familial resemblance at least in the slightest degree to the Lord in whose image I and we are being conformed into.
As I closed my first sermon, I say again -- today, have you heard His voice? Have you heard more than me standing here talking?
Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me." Are you His sheep?
Baaa, sure yabetcha!
Thanks for being my sister.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
gralan
Perhaps, my brother and sister, there is a lesson from real life that can be used to illustrate this seeming dichotomy.
Thanks for your illustration. James says, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed." (v16)
James' counsel goes along with what David shares in Ps 32 when he says, "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away." The open confession of sin and the prayers of the faithful, the bearing the burdens of one another, bring the healing we all need.
I am indeed thankful that you and your wife experienced that healing. And BTW, I think this kind of truthful sharing is needed in the body so thank you for that openness. LL
And amen to this, brother! I only wish more men were like you. I have wanted to go to my pastor and tell him that what we need is to hear Jesus, to know Him more, to be drawn ever closer through His word. And instead, we get video and audio clips from the internet, what others say about such and such, what worldview we should have, what we should believe about this or that. . .
Just give me Jesus. He is the need of man's heart. If men would teach God's word, line by line, Jesus Himself would be revealed.
I fear most don't know Him. And I wonder about those in the pulpit.
I love Jesus and I want to make Him known. Why don't they?
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/12/2010 6:05:20 AM
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cposey
Posts: 634
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
Cposey- My point about King David was that it is only be believing that a future Messiah would one day come to die for his sins by shedding His blood that King David could receive forgiveness. You`ll see how this ties together with your question from Post#1. (How he knew about this yet future sacrifice I won`t get into now because it could divert this thread.) So for now just remember Heb.9:22. "and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." David was only forgiven because of the blood Christ was to yet future shed for him on the cross. Now I`d like to quote to you part of a verse "Saved34" quoted way back in Post#3. 1 John 1:7 "and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin." The same blood that purified King David also purifies us if we confess our sins. You are now saved if you believe and your confession is genuine.
Back to Post#1- "cposey"- "but after salvation and Jesus dying on the cross." Has anything changed? Are Heb.9:22 and 1 John 1:7 not valid anymore? I know you know the answer. And we still haven`t found a way to delete that key word blood.
We are a forgiven people because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. If we ask for forgiveness after we`re saved because we sinned again Christ will always forgive us. If we`re serious we will seek to live a repentant lifestyle. We fail Jesus. We fail others. Others fail us. So because Jesus blood was shed for us on Calvary`s cross we are forgiven. We want others we have failed to forgive us. If others have hurt us in a bad way, we should always be willing to forgive them also. Not because they deserve it, but because of the cross.
You have said it yourself, we are forgiven for all of our sins once we confess them and repent because of what Jesus did on the cross. It is not because of anything that we do, bur rather what Jesus did.
So while it is not wrong to either ask for forgiveness or not to ask for forgiveness, what it required is confession of specific sins and repentance from those specific sins.
many times in my own life and in others, our attitude towards God has become that of forgive me of my sins and i m sorry for doing them, help me to do better. When in our hearts what we are truly saying is, i am too ashamed to specifically admit the sins i have committed, i am unwilling to turn 180 deg away, but i still want some help and miraculous deliverance from this, so that i don't have to carry around the guilt and shame of doing things against God.
In most churches and bible studies and other things of that nature, we as teachers are doing more harm than good by teaching forgiveness is the way to go. Asking for forgiveness has become a perpetuating cycle of sin where we "feel" instant gratification of relief from our sins by asking for forgiveness. It is a completely different ballgame to teach that our sins were forgiven when Jesus died on the cross and once we come to salvation, we must turn from our sins and that it is God's great pleasure that we not carry the guilt, shame and burden of our past, present and future sins. It is what HE wants most to take away, because it kills us and produces death=sin, He wants us to live a life that is full and alive=Jesus. Our sins and the penalty that comes with them has been atoned for and taken upon HIM by Jesus. Yet we still desire to carry them around for some kind of massochistic desire?
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/12/2010 8:11:38 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5763
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
So while it is not wrong to either ask for forgiveness or not to ask for forgiveness, what it required is confession of specific sins and repentance from those specific sins. How can one confess and repent without asking for forgiveness? They are one and the same in my life! How do you separate them out in your life, cposey? I really do not understand this concept - help me out here.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/13/2010 10:34:14 AM
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frankman
Posts: 255
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
You have said it yourself, we are forgiven for all of our sins once we confess them and repent because of what Jesus did on the cross. It is not because of anything that we do, bur rather what Jesus did.
So while it is not wrong to either ask for forgiveness or not to ask for forgiveness, what it required is confession of specific sins and repentance from those specific sins.
many times in my own life and in others, our attitude towards God has become that of forgive me of my sins and i m sorry for doing them, help me to do better. When in our hearts what we are truly saying is, i am too ashamed to specifically admit the sins i have committed, i am unwilling to turn 180 deg away, but i still want some help and miraculous deliverance from this, so that i don't have to carry around the guilt and shame of doing things against God.
In most churches and bible studies and other things of that nature, we as teachers are doing more harm than good by teaching forgiveness is the way to go. Asking for forgiveness has become a perpetuating cycle of sin where we "feel" instant gratification of relief from our sins by asking for forgiveness. It is a completely different ballgame to teach that our sins were forgiven when Jesus died on the cross and once we come to salvation, we must turn from our sins and that it is God's great pleasure that we not carry the guilt, shame and burden of our past, present and future sins. It is what HE wants most to take away, because it kills us and produces death=sin, He wants us to live a life that is full and alive=Jesus. Our sins and the penalty that comes with them has been atoned for and taken upon HIM by Jesus. Yet we still desire to carry them around for some kind of massochistic desire?
I have to agree completely with what you just mentioned. It is the guilt of our past sins that we sometimes fail to let go of that will lead us into committing those same sins over and over again. Jesus has paid it all. Jesus has forgiven us and we need to forgive ourselves also and move on. However the key is to remain humble in our walk with God. That`s why Paul tells us in Phil.3:13 "Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead."
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/15/2010 6:38:15 AM
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cposey
Posts: 634
Joined: 8/20/2009
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quote:
How can one confess and repent without asking for forgiveness? They are one and the same in my life! How do you separate them out in your life, cposey? I really do not understand this concept - help me out here.
Forgiveness is asking God to wipe clean or atone for the sins we have committed
Confession is verbally speaking the sins we have committed or humbling our hearts and minds to be open and honest about what we have done.
Repentance is turning away from the sins that we have committed or leaving them at the foot of the cross and never picking them back up.
When i was saved I was made a new man. My sins were forgiven and my soul cleansed. I was given a new spirit, the Holy Spirit to guide me and teach me. So in my life now, i have stopped praying the generic prayer of; forgive me of my sins, help me to stop doing them. I find this worthless and to unspecific. Instead I confess specifically what i have done to sin against God. Stand firm in faith that Jesus died to atone for those sins. And then ask God to show me the error of my ways and to convict me if i should turn even the slightest back to them.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/15/2010 2:19:14 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2108
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
quote:
How can one confess and repent without asking for forgiveness? They are one and the same in my life! How do you separate them out in your life, cposey? I really do not understand this concept - help me out here.
Forgiveness is asking God to wipe clean or atone for the sins we have committed
Confession is verbally speaking the sins we have committed or humbling our hearts and minds to be open and honest about what we have done.
Repentance is turning away from the sins that we have committed or leaving them at the foot of the cross and never picking them back up.
When i was saved I was made a new man. My sins were forgiven and my soul cleansed. I was given a new spirit, the Holy Spirit to guide me and teach me. So in my life now, i have stopped praying the generic prayer of; forgive me of my sins, help me to stop doing them. I find this worthless and to unspecific. Instead I confess specifically what i have done to sin against God. Stand firm in faith that Jesus died to atone for those sins. And then ask God to show me the error of my ways and to convict me if i should turn even the slightest back to them.
Which is pretty much what David shared with us in Psalm 139 when he prayed:
Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me and know my anxious thoughts;
And see if there be any hurtful way in me,
And lead me in the everlasting way.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/17/2010 12:22:39 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 1040
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Saved34quote:
Yes, this would be describing the gnostic heretics quite well! All the Epistles of John are great for combating any error that presents it's self in the Church today.
Perfectionism
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. How does this combat Perfectionism? Perfectionism claims that after repentance, one may never sin again. Therefore, If we say that we have sinned & repented, we can choose to never sin again because His word is not in us.
quote:
Denial of the sin nature
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Aaaahhh!!!
I hate it when people destroy that verse!
Notice the two surrounding verses of 1 John 1:8?
They say, "Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin."
&
"he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Now, if I can't say 1 John 1:7 & 1 John 1:9 because, if I do, "I deceive myself, and the truth is not in me"; then why did John say verses 7 & 9?
The truth is that we can all say that we have no sin currently, but if we say that we have no sin on our record, that is when we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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Antinomian heresy (live like the devil, yet claim Christian)
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. These verses destroy some people's (mis)interpretation of 1John 1:8.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/17/2010 12:27:48 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 1040
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
Can anyone find a scripture that directly says for us to ask for forgiveness?
I am not looking for the scriptures that pertain to salvation, but after salvation and Jesus dying on the cross.
Thanks 1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
There is no need to ask for foregiveness, all you must do is confess our sins and repent of them, then we may assume that He has foregiven us because He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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RE: Forgivenes - 3/17/2010 2:09:36 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 866
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
How does this combat Perfectionism? Perfectionism claims that after repentance, one may never sin again. Therefore, If we say that we have sinned & repented, we can choose to never sin again because His word is not in us.
Your argument makes little sense in light of the context. The great Apostle says if "WE" say. We as in born ones of God, himself included. Not the world, the book of 1John makes clear distinctions through out the entire book between "we" and "them". If we who have already been saved, who are already in Christ, say we have not sinned we make him a liar. Why on earth would a may be in Christ if he has not acknowledged that he has sinned? No my friend, this is referencing believers and it's "if we say that we are without sin, if we claim to walk on such a plain, we lie.
quote:
Aaaahhh!!!
I hate it when people destroy that verse!
Notice the two surrounding verses of 1 John 1:8?
They say, "Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin." That word "cleanseth" in verse 7 is in the present tense. It is actively cleaning us of all defilement that is presented (by confession) to the pure light of God. If there is no sin, then the blood has nothing to clean, there is no confession necessary. If God asked an unbeliever to confess his sins he'd be on his knees a solid year. No, this is to believers, and this is what it is to walk in the light. To confess our sins and have the precious blood of Christ continuously washing our feet from defilement.
Vs 8 is clear if you have no denominational point to prove. If we say we Have (present tense) no sin,we decieve ourselves. It's not something to argue over, or anything to be proven, if a man or woman would but take an honest assessment of themselves this scripture would shed much light to his or her heart. To do other wise is to continue on in a blind state measuring yourselves by your selves.
quote:
The truth is that we can all say that we have no sin currently, but if we say that we have no sin on our record, that is when we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. This interpretation is not so much as hinted at in the english or the greek. This comes from a fundamental lack of understanding of what it really means to walk in the light. Walking in the light is far from sinless perfection, it is confessing what ever sins may come into your life and allowing he who is light and just, to cleanse you. Else, you wouldn't need to walk in the light cause light makes manifest.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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