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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/16/2010 10:37:53 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 1471
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
9 And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, " How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also. Revelation 6:9-11 (NASB77)
Please read the following excerpts from news reports around the world. They will not only break your heart but open your eyes to one critically important truth:
We are living in the 5th Seal.
quote:
ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN (Worthy News)-- The US-based Christian charity World Vision said Wednesday, March 10, it has suspended operations in Pakistan after militants stormed its offices, killing six staff members and injuring several others.
Police and World Vision said two women were among those killed when up to 15 gunmen, who arrived in pick-up vehicles, began firing on the aid workers.
"They gathered all of us in one room. The gunmen, some of whom had their faces covered, also snatched our mobile phones," added World Vision administration officer Mohammad Sajid, who was apparently in theoffice at the time.
"They dragged people one by one and shifted to an adjacent room and shot and killed them," he told reporters.
World Vision said all victims were Pakistani citizens.
A wave of suicide and bomb attacks across Pakistan has killed more than 3,000 people since 2007, including Christians. Last year saw the "worst persecution" of Christians in a decade with at least 130 known killings across the country, according to the independent Centre for Legal Aid, Assistance and Settlement (CLAAS).
quote:
LAGOS/JOS (Worthy News)-- Bodies of the dead — including many women and children — lined dusty streets in three mostly Christian villages south of Nigeria's regional capital of Jos early Monday, March 8, after rioters armed with machetes "slaughtered" over 200 people here, witnesses said.
Sunday's killings represent the latest religious violence in an area once known as Nigeria's top tourist destination.
More than 300 people died in Jos in January in the latest round of Muslim-Christian violence. Previous clashes killed at least 1,000 people in 2001, 700 people in 2004, and 200 people in 2008.
Christian leaders have however blamed Muslim mobs and militants attempting to impose Islamic law here for the violence.
quote:
UZBEKISTAN: Threats, raids and violence against religious believers
By Mushfig Bayram, Forum 18 News Service <http://www.forum18.org>, and
Felix Corley, Forum 18 News Service <http://www.forum18.org>
Three members of the unregistered Greater Grace Protestant Church have been given heavy fines in Samarkand in central Uzbekistan, Forum 18 News Service has learned. The fines followed a police raid on a private home, after which children and teenagers were illegally interrogated without their parents being present. A church member was also threatened with jail unless he confessed that he taught the Bible, which would have rendered him liable to prosecution for teaching religious doctrines without the permission of the state and a registered religious organisation. The church has been unsuccessfully seeking state registration since 2000. Church members also complained that the NSS secret police has been closely watching them recently. A Muslim refugee has also complained to the BBC of NSS attempts to recruit him as an informer.
In a separate case, two Protestant women in eastern Uzbekistan are facing charges after a raid, and one of the women was beaten up when she refused to confess to missionary activity, a criminal offence in Uzbekistan.
quote:
HENAN--On the morning of March 11th, Christian human rights attorney Wu Chenglian opened up the legal training session with a word of prayer. More than 30 house church pastors gathered in the meeting room to study the law and learn how to equip their churches to defend their religious rights.
In the mid-morning, thirty police officers from the Fangcheng County's Religious Affairs Bureau and Public Security branches barged into the church building where they were meeting, surrounded the group, and demanded the church leaders show their identification cards. They then attempted to register each individual's identification records without warrant, but the church leaders refused to comply. The officers then confiscated all Biblical and legal training materials, also seizing personal items including cell phones and wallets. They held all thirty pastors for interrogation, refusing even to let them cook lunch (at 12:35 PM) in the house kitchen.
This is just a small sampling of the persecution Christians worldwide suffer every day for no other reason than they are Christians. We take the freedom we have to worship and assemble in this country for granted, yet there are those whose lives are being cut short every day because they don't enjoy this freedom.
When I suggest that we are living in the time of the 5th Seal, most people in this country - who have never known the kind of tribulation our brothers and sisters in Christ around the world suffer - deny it by saying "it's not that bad", as though our sheltered lives are the rule.
Our freedom is the exception to the rule of persecution and martyrdom around the world.
This is why I submit to you that the "great tribulation" mentioned in Revelation 7:14 is the time in which Christ's church lives now. It will end when He calls us home and when He does, the Day of His Wrath begins.
You may disagree, but whether you believe this or not doesn't matter. Time is short. Be prepared for His return.
Greetings
quote:
This is why I submit to you that the "great tribulation" mentioned in Revelation 7:14 is the time in which Christ's church lives now.
Be careful storm, got to keep the order in tact, the fifth seal is not relative with the beginning of sorrows
Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
Take a peek at it this way for a moment...
In the addition to beginning of sorrows.
The what comes afterwards... is the…. "then they will" ... or is followed by …..being Delivered up to tribulation
The key to be hated by all nations for My name's sake,
......is that the Gospel has to be being preached in ALL nations ....
So until this actually happens.. .or.... very soon a short window is going to open up…
That will fulfill that prophecy
AS
Mat 24:14 this gospel of the kingdom "will be" preached in "all" the world as a witness to all the nations,
and then......
the end… will come.
....The end consists of the 7 year tribulation…
How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
These here under the altar are those of the 7
Rev 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they [were], was completed.
So the devastation of these during the 5th seal of the tribulation… is suggesting number wise,
…lets use 1/3 for an example…
.... at least 1/3 of their fellow servants and 1/3 their brethren = both [the number of]
...has be equal to = being killed as they [were], =>>>of the same who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
So if we use 1/3 ... then both the number of …. suggests that the Saints under the altar consisted of 1/3
Therefore to be completed in anything then both the number of...or 2/3 + the 1/3 under the altar = 3/3 = completed
That is not speaking of those who will endure to the end... it is speaking of the number who were killed
There is no way that we are losing 2/3s of the brethren by death as we speak… because the end is not yet.
When the first 1/3 (or whatever large number marks that beginning) are killed, then I would get a little worried about being caught up in the 5th seal
Just a thought!
LG
The Gospel hasn't been "preached" in all nations, actually. No one can preach it in Saudi Arabia or even Israel, for that matter.
I also don't think the U.S. or several other countries, including countries of the EU have gone through any real "tribulation" yet.
My understanding of the servants under the altar is that they are those who are beheaded by Antichrist, or are they all Christians who have been killed for Christ through the ages and are waiting for the victims of Antichrist to join them?
I agree with you what you said, LG. I'm not sure why I quoted your post. 
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/16/2010 11:50:14 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
The Gospel hasn't been "preached" in all nations, actually. No one can preach it in Saudi Arabia or even Israel, for that matter.
Wherever the gospel is preached persecution follows. There have been Christians beheaded in Saudi Arabia within the last few years simply for preaching the gospel because Christian evangelism is illegal there (and in other Muslim countries).
Don't think for a moment that because it's not so bad here doesn't mean the church isn't under intense persecution throughout the rest of the world. It is. As I wrote before, we are the exception, not the rule.
quote:
My understanding of the servants under the altar is that they are those who are beheaded by Antichrist, or are they all Christians who have been killed for Christ through the ages and are waiting for the victims of Antichrist to join them?
There are two separate groups of martyrs mentioned in Revelation:
Group 1:
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. Revelation 6:9 (NKJV)
Group 2:
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. Revelation 20:4 (NKJV)
Group 1:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:10-11 (NKJV)
Group 2:
And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4 (NKJV)
The first group is those slain through the tribulation (thlipsis) of which Christ spoke in Matthew 24:9 and John 16:33. This has been going on since Stephen was stoned.
The second group is those slain for refusing to worship the beast or take his mark. These are those who are martyred during God's wrath: those left on the earth after the Rapture who turn to Christ too late to escape it.
Again, "great tribulation" does not refer to the time of God's wrath (the trumpets and bowls). It is the time in which we have been living since Stephen was stoned to death for his faith. Find an on-line copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs and see how the church suffered incredible persecution and martyrdom in the first few centuries after Christ ascended! That continues throughout the world today!
This tribulation ends with the Rapture of the church, which ushers in the time of God's wrath, a time not appointed for the church but the world.
No one has to agree with this and - quite frankly - agreeing or disagreeing with me doesn't change the way these things will unfold. We'll see soon enough, one way or another.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/17/2010 12:37:15 AM >
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 12:06:25 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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Marv...
I looked at you citation for in Revelation regarding the sun, moon and stars not giving a third of their light.
It's written in a manner completely differently than that seen in the 6th Seal and the other passages I mentioned in parallel with it.
You're right, though: similar does not mean same. The passage you cited is similar. The passages I cited are the same.
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 12:08:32 AM
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Stormcrow
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quote:
The problem is that the Rapture occurs when the last one enters Jesus Christs fold, alive in Christ. When the last believer accepts, the Rapture occurs...
Book, chapter and verse, please. Prove it.
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 12:28:15 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
The end consists of the 7 year tribulation…
How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
These here under the altar are those of the 7
Jesus didn't specify a time limit for tribulation. The "7 year GREAT TRIBULATION" Lindsay, Scofield, Darby, van Impe and others teach is a misapplication of Daniel's 70th week.
Jesus simply said, "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (NKJV)
As noted above, the same Greek word used in John 16:33 (thlipsis) and Matthew 24:9 is used FOR THE VERY LAST TIME IN REVELATION 7:14 and is used in reference to the raptured church standing before the throne of God!
Thlipsis is NEVER used again after that in the book of Revelation, HOWEVER, it is used 4 other times BEFORE Rev. 7:14 ALWAYS in reference to Christians and the church!
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation (thlipsis) and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9 (NKJV)
"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 I know your works, tribulation (thlipsis), and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:8-9 (NKJV)
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation (thlipsis) ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation (thlipsis), unless they repent of their deeds. Revelation 2:22 (NKJV)
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation (thlipsis), and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14 (NKJV)
The church has been in tribulation (thlipsis) since Christ ascended, as he promised it would (John 16:33, Matthew 24:9) but this tribulation (thlipsis) ENDS in Revelation 7:14, where we see the raptured church standing before the throne of God!
Everything after that is God's wrath. And what does Paul say about that?
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ... 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NKJV)
Paul wrote that in regard to the rapture of the church.
There it is, LG: my best shot at explaining it again. 
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/17/2010 12:34:54 AM >
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 12:41:04 AM
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Stormcrow
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Want to know the truth about persecution?
If we're not suffering for the sake of the gospel, can the world really see Christ in us?
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 12:53:53 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Stormcrow
There is a sequence:
Rev 6:12 6th Seal - The Whole Moon turned blood red. The whole moon still receives reflective light.
Rev 8:12 4th Trumpet - A Third of the sun was struck, a Third of the Moon, and a Third of the Stars, so that a third of them turned dark. Two thirds of the moon still receives reflective light.
Matt 24:29 - Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the Moon will not give its light.... The moon receives NO reflective light.
Three different events at three different times.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 1:06:10 AM
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Stormcrow
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Not three events. Two events and two different ways of describing one event.
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 9:22:59 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
So when you see stand in the holy place the A/D spoken of through the prophet Daniel, let those is Judea flee to the mountains. So the progression is: When you see the A/D set up, FLEE, for after this there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world. Then immediately after the distress of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not gives its light.
You're conflating the return of Christ with the destruction of Jerusalem. BTW, that word "immediately" doesn't appear in Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse (Luke 21).
As I have shown you in your "70th week" thread, Daniel 9:24-27 has nothing to do with the tribulation of the church but it's about the siege and destruction of Jerusalem, as also seen in Ezekiel 4 (but I'm not going to rehash that here).
The tribulation of Matthew 24:15-22 refers specifically to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple! It is NOT the same as the tribulation which oppresses the church.
One more thing:
You need to read Matthew in light of Luke to understand Matthew. Again, here's what Matthew writes AFTER he describes the destruction of Jerusalem:
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Matthew 24:23-28 (NKJV)
THEN Matthew writes:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
Which days? As I read it: the days of false Christs and false prophets! The days we're living in NOW with so many false religions all claiming to do wondrous things for people and luring people away from the truth of the gospel: the SAME kind of apostasy and heresy that Paul confronted in His letters and that John wrote of in the letters to the churches in Revelation!
The same kind of persecution Christians face in countries that worship these false Christs: Mohammed, Buddha, Shiva, Vishnu, and even Communism and Humanism! Any false religion, belief system or doctrine that sets itself against the gospel! See it now? The times we're living in NOW!
Besides the works of Flavius Josephus and Foxe's Book of Martyrs, every Christian library should have at least two other books: Walter Martin's "Kingdom of the Cults" and "Kingdom of the Occult." These last two will help you understand EXACTLY what Christ meant for us regarding these days and the tribulation that accompanies them.
And where does Luke write of this? Not in Luke 21, but in Luke 17 concluding with the rapture!
22 Then He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.
25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.
32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left." [Christ is describing the Rapture here.]
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Luke 17:22-37 (NKJV)
Look again:
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Matthew 24:28 (NKJV)
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Luke 17:37 (NKJV)
Where are the taken ones going??? They are going to be with the Lord, to meet Him in the air at His coming to take the church out of the world!
You have to read Matthew and Luke TOGETHER to get the whole picture!
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/17/2010 10:39:08 AM >
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 12:41:13 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 1471
Joined: 11/13/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
The end consists of the 7 year tribulation…
How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
These here under the altar are those of the 7
Jesus didn't specify a time limit for tribulation. The "7 year GREAT TRIBULATION" Lindsay, Scofield, Darby, van Impe and others teach is a misapplication of Daniel's 70th week.
Jesus simply said, "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (NKJV)
As noted above, the same Greek word used in John 16:33 (thlipsis) and Matthew 24:9 is used FOR THE VERY LAST TIME IN REVELATION 7:14 and is used in reference to the raptured church standing before the throne of God!
Thlipsis is NEVER used again after that in the book of Revelation, HOWEVER, it is used 4 other times BEFORE Rev. 7:14 ALWAYS in reference to Christians and the church!
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation (thlipsis) and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9 (NKJV)
"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 I know your works, tribulation (thlipsis), and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:8-9 (NKJV)
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation (thlipsis) ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation (thlipsis), unless they repent of their deeds. Revelation 2:22 (NKJV)
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation (thlipsis), and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14 (NKJV)
The church has been in tribulation (thlipsis) since Christ ascended, as he promised it would (John 16:33, Matthew 24:9) but this tribulation (thlipsis) ENDS in Revelation 7:14, where we see the raptured church standing before the throne of God!
Everything after that is God's wrath. And what does Paul say about that?
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ... 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NKJV)
Paul wrote that in regard to the rapture of the church.
There it is, LG: my best shot at explaining it again.
So then, what is Daniel's 70th week? Just a time of 3 1/2 yrs. before God's wrath for 3 1/2 yrs.? And if we are in the time of the 5th seal being opened, you must believe that we are in that 3 1/2 yr. period before the wrath of God? Then that would be putting a time for the Rapture to occur, depending upon when this half of the week started. If we are in the first half of Daniel's 70th week, then we only have what is left of that 7 yr. period before Jesus returns?
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 12:45:36 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
The problem is that the Rapture occurs when the last one enters Jesus Christs fold, alive in Christ. When the last believer accepts, the Rapture occurs...
Book, chapter and verse, please. Prove it.
Stormcrow
First let us look at the 6th Seal and who these souls are. Rev 6 - under the altar are the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. v 11 - Then each were given a white robe and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
The only ones under the altar are those who were martyred in one way. Forget the 98 per cent plus (martyrs) who were killed in various other ways over the century's. Plus all those other believers who (most likely make up more than 98 per cent of the Whole Church Body) did not die by martyrdom. Now I must ask a question??? Where are the rest of the saints. Why were these under the altar given white robes, while the Bride of Christ is given fine linen. Rev 19:7,8.
Now let's look at I Cor 12:24b,25 - But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. Now when looking back at the 6th Seal, there is separation or division which has occurred. It is no longer one Body. (ALL are One Body) . But division is suggested in Rev 6:9-11. The Body must be one in heaven and not divided. So these under the altar are not of the Body of the Church. They are the ones described in Rev 13:10 - If anyone is to be killed with the sword , with the sword he will be killed. These are the martyrs under the altar.
Now to you question . The Bride of Christ/Church is built by addition of new members. Acts 2:47 - and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. v41 - and about three thousand were added to their number that day. And v.39 - The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, for all whom the Lord our God will call. When this calling is finished, the Bride/Church is now complete, it is now ready to ascend in the Rapture. The Rapture occurs after the last one is called into the fold of Christ, The Body is now One and now Whole.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 3:42:56 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2526
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Milliecat
The Gospel hasn't been "preached" in all nations, actually. No one can preach it in Saudi Arabia or even Israel, for that matter.
I also don't think the U.S. or several other countries, including countries of the EU have gone through any real "tribulation" yet.
My understanding of the servants under the altar is that they are those who are beheaded by Antichrist, or are they all Christians who have been killed for Christ through the ages and are waiting for the victims of Antichrist to join them?
I agree with you what you said, LG. I'm not sure why I quoted your post.
Greetings
quote:
I'm not sure why I quoted your post.
LOL!!
Most likely you'll hear some things over the course of the next few days (from other sources) that one may want to go back and take a peek at!
quote:
My understanding of the servants under the altar is that they are those who are beheaded by Antichrist, or are they all Christians who have been killed for Christ through the ages
Yea.. I got that notion also when I was writing the above (it came in like manner … that these may be Christians who have been killed for Christ through the ages based on the word of God, and the testimony which they had maintained)
... but what stood out like a sore thumb in opposition to that….
Is that Christians during times past, even though they died because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had maintained…… they did not all die the same death; as was mentioned about the souls under the altar,
However the scripture concerning the souls under the altar suggests it was both…
the word of God, and of the testimony which they had maintained,
and the manner” in which they “were killed”
…..they were old to wait a while… because “of the manner” in which they “were killed” up and until a certain amount is killed… “As they” were… is when they would be avenged.
SO if we compare those Christians through the ages who have been killed for Christ, before the Day of the Lord….these…. if the principal is true…
These….. Would be absent from the body would have been “present with the Lord”…., not told to wait.
So it looks like the key is…the manner in which the souls under the alter were killed, not just their testimony
On a larger prophetic note, we can go back and see that when the crucifixion was first set in place as a means for global punishment it was setup beforehand for it be availed and used to crucify Jesus;
=so that the prophetic scriptures would have its fulfillment …
The same will apply here…. as the indicator as to how these souls “were (are going to be) killed” … therefore the means of or the manner of execution has to be established beforehand, =so that the prophetic scripture would have its fulfillment …
those who will follow afterwards the souls under the alter…
In order for them to be killed in like manner "as they were",
.......then the manner of capitol punishment for tribulation Saints has to be established "beforehand
AND… it seems the means to do so ... create the manner of capitol punishment ....is not yet seen as we speak…. for us to be into the 5th seal... that is...
But I have a funny feeling this current administration is working very closely... with certian folks on certain things…(setting up)
For example...
…Has anyone heard what the US attorney general made mention to today? 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/17/2010 4:28:07 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 803
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
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LG, Shalom.
Perhaps the Martyrs under the Alter are those who were killed (no matter the method), over time, and haven't been to Bema Judgment yet, to receive their blessings (actually no one may have yet been blessed by Bema). Many of these souls will have been there for some time, and with no one knowing when God is going to end the Era, that is what they are asking, 'When,' not 'If.' I always get the feeling that this Nr-1 group of Martyrs are getting anxious (like I am), to get things ended, to be able to settle in to Millennium, and then Eternity. They are told that there is gonna be a whole lot more coming (probably from the Great Tribulation part). Oh, and being given White Robes could indicate they are still dressed as they were when Martyred. Just a thought.
OK, On your mark, get set, GO,,,,back to discussion,,,and I will retire back to the stands, and watch the fireworks.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 1:07:20 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
The only ones under the altar are those who were martyred in one way. Forget the 98 per cent plus (martyrs) who were killed in various other ways over the century's.
LG, Marv:
You're misreading the meaning of the phrase, "even as they had been." The implication is that they would die as martyrs, which is evident in the context of the passage, not that they would all die by a single means of execution! Neither the text nor context supports the interpretation you're reading into it.
quote:
So then, what is Daniel's 70th week?
Already and completely fulfilled with the death of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem, as seen in Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24.
But I'm not going to rehash that debate here. Look for it in the "70th Week Grafting (or something like that) thread.
The reason most people have trouble understanding Revelation is that they're trying to harmonize it with Daniel 9:24-27. In order to do so, you have to contort Revelation's timeline into all kinds of weird shapes that renders it virtually useless in trying to understand it. Not only that, but it makes events in Revelation unrecognizable in relation to other New Testament prophecies!
Therefore, most people don't even try to read Revelation let alone understand it when the promise of the book is that those who do so will be blessed!
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NKJV)
Now think about it for a second: the blessing to found in the book of Revelation doesn't come from all the salacious stuff that peaks our interest, like the identity of the Beast and what his mark is, or the identity of the False Prophet, or who the combatants are in the wars mentioned in the book. That's the stuff of fiction novelists (Hal Lindsay, et al) and Hollywood.
The blessing comes from knowing that Christ Himself is in control and that He will not allow His church to suffer the wrath of God. The blessing is seen in the way in which we return with Him to save Israel, and are thus united with our Jewish brothers under Christ once and forever! It answers every question we've ever had about where we fit into "God's end game!"
Unfortunately, because of the way false teachings have risen around it, most people don't see the blessing in reading it. Doing so becomes a burden, not a blessing.
I came from the whole "70th week, Pre-trib" crowd. I grew up believing that. But upon closer examination, this simply doesn't fit what the New Testament writers were trying to tell us.
What I'm trying to do here is to challenge people to study this stuff for themselves. Challenge the assumptions about what we've all been taught, and see the text through fresh eyes. When I started doing that, it all began to make a lot more sense.
Words mean things, as Mr. Limbaugh often says. When someone uses the word "tribulation" in relation to the outpouring of God's wrath, it creates confusion. Don't let it. The word tribulation (thlipsi) never appears in Revelation after it's used in reference to the raptured church in Revelation 7:14. Don't take my word for it: look it up yourselves!
Well then, if what comes after the opening of the 6th Seal isn't thlipsis, what is it?
7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:3-7 (NKJV)
For the day of the Lord of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up-- And it shall be brought low-- Isaiah 2:12 (NKJV)
They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily. Isaiah 2:19 (NKJV)
9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger. Isaiah 13:9-13 (NKJV)
Now, look at these passages in light of the 6th Seal:
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)
Now, read Matthew 24:29-31 and Luke21:25-28 again in light of all these.
Seeing the big picture here? When the 6th Seal is opened and God's wrath begins, where is the church?
After these things (Rev. 6:12-17, Rev. 7:1-8) I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Revelation 7:9 (NKJV)
Those able to stand are those (the church) standing before the throne and the Lamb!
The first 5 seals are part of the time of the tribulation of the church which ends with its rapture. But the 6th Seal is the one that raptures the church ushers in God's wrath on the earth.
Understand now how Daniel's 70th week has nothing to do with the church, its tribulation (thlipsis) or the Day of the Lord of Hosts?
Challenge your assumptions and walk that dogma around the Word a few times and see if it still hunts.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/18/2010 11:33:57 AM >
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 1:29:33 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. Now when looking back at the 6th Seal, there is separation or division which has occurred.
Sorry, Marv: you're taking that passage in 1 Corinthians 12 WAY out of context! 1 Corinthians 12 is talking about the gifts of the Spirit and how every member is important as they pertain to the operation of the gifts in the church!
The body of Christ is separated all the time! By what??? BY THE DEATH OF ITS MEMBERS! That's EXACTLY why Paul wrote what he did to the Thessalonians and Corinthians about the rapture! They were concerned about how they would be reunited with those who had died before them!
But this points to a larger issue, Marv: the idea that you would go to such lengths to twist scripture so completely out of context to defend your position troubles me. I have openly admitted to others on this board when I've been wrong, Marv. Can you say the same?
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 1:47:33 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
When this calling is finished, the Bride/Church is now complete, it is now ready to ascend in the Rapture. The Rapture occurs after the last one is called into the fold of Christ, The Body is now One and now Whole.
That's not what the text says! You've applied a doctrine (the rapture) to it that is NOWHERE to be seen in Acts 2! You've added this idea of a "complete bride/church" that has NOTHING to do with this passage!
Show me the verse SPECIFICALLY that reads, "when the last Christian is saved, then the rapture comes!" I don't want speculation. I don't want interpretation or passages taken out of context and fit together like a "Frankenstein's monster."
I have provided ample, unambiguous support from scripture for my position, Marv. Please respond in kind if you can.
Thanks.
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 2:40:36 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
Oh, and being given White Robes could indicate they are still dressed as they were when Martyred. Just a thought.
Hey, Arley! Thanks for chiming in!
And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer...
23 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 24 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. Leviticus 23:23-24 (NKJV)
Leviticus 23 describes all the feasts that Israel was to celebrate. They were given to Israel as a covenant with God. They are, in order:
Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah), Yom Kippur (Atonement) and Tabernacles.
Each of these feasts has days of rest in addition to the normal Sabbath. And each of these feasts foreshadows the fulfillment of Christ's redemptive work in the New Testament.
For instance, the Feast of Passover foreshadows His sacrificial death on the cross: the lamb that was slain whose blood was sprinkled on the doorposts.
The Feast of Unleavened Bread signifies sanctification: Christ's body would not decay in the grave.
The Feast of Firstfruits foreshadows and signifies Christ's resurrection.
The Feast of Pentecost signifies the giving of the Holy Spirit and the birth of church age.
Now we come to the Feast of the Trumpets, which signifies the Rapture of the church! Look at this:
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 (NKJV)
I had never seen the Rapture in Matthew 24 until I saw that the 6th Seal was the same event described in Matt. 24:29-31!
Now look at 1 Thessalonians!
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NKJV)
So, if the Feast of Pentecost represents the beginning of the church age, and the Feast of Trumpets represents the end of it (the 6th Seal), what are the souls under the altar told to do?
...rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:11 (NKJV)
The souls under the altar are resting until the Trumpet is blown that reunites the dead in Christ with those of us still living, when we then appear standing before the throne and the Lamb that was slain! (Revelation 7:9-14)
Exciting, huh??? The Feasts tell us precisely the age in which we're living: during the time of the 5th Seal!
It all fits together and you don't even need Daniel's 70th week to understand it!
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/18/2010 2:49:17 AM >
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 3:46:19 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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One more thing about the souls under the altar:
Paul writes in 2 Timothy 4:6 that he is, "already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand." He was martyred soon after this.
When a drink offering is poured onto the altar, it would flow beneath it. Their position under the altar, therefore, doesn't represent a lowly estate, rather it signifies the sacrifice they made with their own blood as a "drink offering" for their faith in and testimony of Christ.
The rest they receive there comes as a response to the things they've suffered through this tribulation. It is not their ultimate reward.
They are in a holy, safe, and esteemed place resting there until we are reunited with them when the trumpet sounds.
I will never be worthy of Christ or these saints.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/18/2010 3:58:16 AM >
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 4:02:19 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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BTW, there is at least one other verse in the NT where a Christian asks the Lord to "repay" someone who has "done them great harm!
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me [Paul] much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works. 15 You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words. 2 Timothy 4:14-15 (NKJV)
Paul was consistent with his own teaching: leave the vengeance to God.
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 9:46:45 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
When this calling is finished, the Bride/Church is now complete, it is now ready to ascend in the Rapture. The Rapture occurs after the last one is called into the fold of Christ, The Body is now One and now Whole.
That's not what the text says! You've applied a doctrine (the rapture) to it that is NOWHERE to be seen in Acts 2! You've added this idea of a "complete bride/church" that has NOTHING to do with this passage!
Show me the verse SPECIFICALLY that reads, "when the last Christian is saved, then the rapture comes!" I don't want speculation. I don't want interpretation or passages taken out of context and fit together like a "Frankenstein's monster."
I have provided ample, unambiguous support from scripture for my position, Marv. Please respond in kind if you can.
Thanks.
What I have said is the the Church is increased by addition (the calling of God). And at some point in the future there will be a complete Body. When this happens the Rapture can occur. It is not built by reduction, meaning the last of a few who are to be killed ushers in the Rapture. I did not say I had scripture, I listed evidence that the Church is built by addition and when the last one enters, the Body is Complete. Then it is my belief the the Rapture will occur.
Your position is also faulty. They must wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. How long was this wait, One day, one month, one year, two years. It does not say when this last one is killed does it. So you are speculating. This could extend all the way to just before Armageddon.
The thing is; that none of the first 4 Seals can be substantiated as being opened. This is just speculation.
1st Seal - Who is this one conquering. It is a he, not a spirit (maybe so, the Dragon or fallen angel might be considered a spirit). He held and bow was given a crown.
2nd Seal - When was there peace in this world to be taken away. It has been the same since before Abraham, Wars and battles. Only the names of the players have changed. When was the peaceful period which was taken away.
3rd Seal - Famine - when has this happened globally. A quart of wheat for a days wages, and three quarts of barley for a days wages.... Where in History has this happened.
4th Seal - They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague and by the wild beasts of the earth. Now you need to find a time where 1/4 of the earth was killed, by four different means. This has never happened. Where is your starting point. What was the world population at that time to come with a 1/4 of them being killed. It cannot be on going, for the world population changes.
Now with the first Four Seals being speculation, the 5th Seal then is speculative. There needs to be absolute proof. Why so many different orders for the four seals. Islam, is it this first or fourth. Did Capitalism really bring in this famine. When did the spirit of antichrist really show up. You are just feeding off what others have commented on. So many commentaries with so many different approaches. All conditions of the Seals must be met. This is prophecy.
Absolutely no Proof that any of the Seals have been opened. Just Conjecture.
Now do you see my point. Some say the First Seal is opened at the onset of the final 7 year tribulation period. I say it is opened at the midpoint of the last seven years. All the S's, T's and B's fit nicely in the last 3 1/3 year period.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 10:55:38 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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See post 43 with regards to the Feasts, specifically the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) the last of the spring festivals, and the Feast of Trumpets, the first of the fall festivals.
Let's assume the 1st Seal is the spirit of Evangelism (as you suggested Matthew Henry said it was). It was opened on the day of Pentecost!!
All the other Seals up to and including the 5th would now be opened, because the church has been in tribulation (thlipsis) SINCE THAT 1ST SEAL WAS OPENED, and the 5TH SEAL REPRESENTS THOSE MARTYRED DURING THIS TIME!
They are, therefore, told to rest until the age of martyrdom is complete AND THE TRUMPET IS BLOWN (Feast of Trumpets) at the 6th Seal, signifying the end of the church age, the end of the church's tribulation (thlipsis) AND THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S WRATH ON THE EARTH!
Revelation 7:9-14 tells us where the church is during the time of His wrath:
IN HEAVEN BEFORE THE THRONE AND THE LAMB!
Trying to fit the first 5 Seals into the "Day of the Lord of Hosts" (God's wrath) simply doesn't work!
But more than that, you're accusing me of speculation when you've offered nothing BUT belief, speculation, and twisted interpretation. And when I've asked you for PROOF, you cannot provide a single, conclusive scripture to support your position!
Shouldn't that tell you something, Marv? Shouldn't that scream that such a position NEEDS to be viewed far more critically than how you're viewing it now???
I'm telling you what the Word says. You keep responding with what you BELIEVE! I'll let others decide for themselves which view better represents the truth of the matter.
quote:
I did not say I had scripture, I listed evidence that the Church is built by addition and when the last one enters, the Body is Complete. Then it is my belief the the Rapture will occur.
I rest my case.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 3/18/2010 11:25:45 AM >
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 11:10:03 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
It does not say when this last one is killed does it.
Precisely the point I've been trying to make, Marv: no one knows the day or the hour Christ will return, as He said, because NO ONE BUT THE FATHER KNOWS WHEN THIS LAST SAINT WILL BE SLAIN FOR HIS OR HER TESTIMONY!!!
That's why Christ told us to BE READY! The rapture could literally happen ANY MOMENT! As lawlessness abounds throughout the earth, more and more of our brothers and sisters around the world suffer persecution and death every day! God is not going to allow that to go on forever!
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 11:19:23 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Now with the first Four Seals being speculation, the 5th Seal then is speculative. There needs to be absolute proof. Why so many different orders for the four seals. Islam, is it this first or fourth. Did Capitalism really bring in this famine. When did the spirit of antichrist really show up. You are just feeding off what others have commented on. So many commentaries with so many different approaches. All conditions of the Seals must be met.
All of these issues have been addressed in the other thread on the Four Horsemen. You argued these same things there. As I said in that thread, it doesn't matter what you call these spirits (I happen to believe they are as Baxter said they were) but the larger point is THEY'VE ALL BEEN RELEASED!
You've been shown the various way these could be interpreted but what's more important is that THE FIRST FOUR SEALS HAVE ALREADY BEEN OPENED!
No other view explains the operation of these spirits (Zechariah 6) in the world than to understand they're already roaming the earth impelling man's actions!
Get it? SPIRITS MANIFEST ("MAKE KNOWN") THEMSELVES THROUGH THE BELIEFS AND ACTIONS OF HUMAN BEINGS!
Please explain - in light of this very simple truth - the last 2,000 years of human history without the spiritual influence the Four Horsemen provide!
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 11:41:27 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
7 year tribulation period.
As I've repeatedly shown, the tribulation has been on-going since Christ ascended and sent the Holy Spirit. Daniel's 70th week has nothing to do with it, and I have provided all kinds of scriptural support to reinforce this claim.
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RE: The 5th Seal - 3/18/2010 11:48:34 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
It does not say when this last one is killed does it.
Precisely the point I've been trying to make, Marv: no one knows the day or the hour Christ will return, as He said, because NO ONE BUT THE FATHER KNOWS WHEN THIS LAST SAINT WILL BE SLAIN FOR HIS OR HER TESTIMONY!!!
That's why Christ told us to BE READY! The rapture could literally happen ANY MOMENT! As lawlessness abounds throughout the earth, more and more of our brothers and sisters around the world suffer persecution and death every day! God is not going to allow that to go on forever!
Stormcrow
How can you say that lawlessness abounds throughout the earth. In prior posts you have said Christ put an end to Sin (number two of the six), the Devil has no place. Have you changed your thinking.
So your Rapture could be just prior to Armageddon or it could be during the 5th Trumpet. Or sometime during the 6th Trumpet. But then they will know the time is near or upon them. At this time we do not know if the time is near or upon us, so there can be "no jumping on the wagon" at the last minute. The thing is Death for us may precede the Rapture. How will we die. Natural causes, Accident, be murdered not for the Gospels sake, or be Murdered for the Gospels sake, We go the way we go, it does not matter how we die. So the manner of death has no place in the scheme of things.
Just like those under the altar, no one else is there. Why because they are already with Christ. What should our focus be here on Earth. Christ. What should our focus be when in heaven. Christ. Why then is this group focused on the way they died and avenging their blood, when their focus should be on Christ. My blood, if killed, was taken care of on the Cross. Why not theirs. You have said Christ has done it ALL.
The same with the completion of the Body. No one know when the Bride is complete. It could be an hour from now or two years ahead. But not until the last one is called and enters the fold of Christ can the Rapture occur.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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