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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/9/2010 4:22:24 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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RC...Methinks, Walter, will be awfully surprised with who he sees in heaven... 
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/9/2010 4:38:32 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: copybingo
Patricius79 -
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Heb3:1
I don't believe the writer of Hebrews was equating Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest, with the Apostles of the new Testament, do you?
No. But Christ is an Apostle. And he sent the Apostles as he was sent. and they in turn sent others, as the Scriptures say. Cf. Rom 10:15, 2 Tim 1:6; 2:2. Everyone in the Scriptures is ordained by an Apostle or by someone ordained by an Apostle, right? Is there anyone elected by a congregation?
IRONSHARPENS IRON WROTE:
quote:
RC...Methinks, Walter, will be awfully surprised with who he sees in heaven...
My faith is similar to Walter's I think, and I fully expect to see countless former protestants in heaven. Many protestants now are much better Catholics than nominal Catholics, and we are all one Body through Baptism (1 Cor 12:13), though wounded through the anti-Biblical reformation.
God came so that we would be One (Jn 17:11, 22; 1 Cor 1:10), not into denominationalism, right?
Here is an interesting passage from the 100s St. Irenaeus, who echoes 1 Cor 11:2 and 2 Thes 2:15, that we should follow Apostolic Tradition and Apostolic Succession, which was the teaching of the whole early Church between 33 and 500 A.D. etc:
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 2/9/2010 5:52:53 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/9/2010 6:56:07 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 7661
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
quote:
ORIGINAL: copybingo
Patricius79 -
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Heb3:1
I don't believe the writer of Hebrews was equating Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest, with the Apostles of the new Testament, do you?
No. But Christ is an Apostle. And he sent the Apostles as he was sent. and they in turn sent others, as the Scriptures say. Cf. Rom 10:15, 2 Tim 1:6; 2:2. Everyone in the Scriptures is ordained by an Apostle or by someone ordained by an Apostle, right? Is there anyone elected by a congregation?
IRONSHARPENS IRON WROTE:
quote:
RC...Methinks, Walter, will be awfully surprised with who he sees in heaven...
My faith is similar to Walter's I think, and I fully expect to see countless former protestants in heaven. Many protestants now are much better Catholics than nominal Catholics, and we are all one Body through Baptism (1 Cor 12:13), though wounded through the anti-Biblical reformation.
God came so that we would be One (Jn 17:11, 22; 1 Cor 1:10), not into denominationalism, right?
Here is an interesting passage from the 100s St. Irenaeus, who echoes 1 Cor 11:2 and 2 Thes 2:15, that we should follow Apostolic Tradition and Apostolic Succession, which was the teaching of the whole early Church between 33 and 500 A.D. etc:
"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
Walter seems to feel that only those who are Eastern Orthodox are the Church (True Christians) and will be in Heaven.
Do you feel only those who are Roman Catholics are the Church (True Christians) and will be in Heaven?
Or do you believe that all Believers in Christ Jesus of what ever ilk are the Church (True believers) and will be in Heaven.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/9/2010 7:05:30 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
Walter seems to feel that only those who are Eastern Orthodox are the Church (True Christians) and will be in Heaven.
Are you sure?
quote:
Do you feel only those who are Roman Catholics are the Church (True Christians) and will be in Heaven?
I believe that all Christians are already what you would call "Roman Catholic", though not in full commmunion. That' would include even Walter, though he and I are already in extremely close communion and thinking (cf. 1 Cor 1:10) Many "Catholics" likewise are not in full communion.
I don't believe that any of hte protestant communities have Apostolic Succession in the Biblical and patristic sense, which is why we don't find anyone between 33 and 1100 A.D.--or to avoid the old discussion, we could say between 100 and 1100 A.D.--with anyything close to the modern protestant positions.
However, because their baptisms are valid, they are truly members of the Body of Christ, and called to the fulness of Life in Christ.
quote:
Or do you believe that all Believers in Christ Jesus of what ever ilk are the Church (True believers) and will be in Heaven.
Definitely, hoping they persevere to the end, and so are saved. Let's all pray for each otehr and encourage one another to that end.
Here is St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo on Apostolic Succession:
"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).
quote:
Thanks RC
You're welcome. Thanks for the civility. Let's all carry our crosses into deeper and deeper peace and fraternal communion with each other as apostles of Jesus Christ --pat
p.s. I pulled up the Assumption of Mary thread in the theology forums. I think that this doctrine is indeed Biblical and much easier to prove from Scripture than the principle of Sola Scriptura, and equally easy with proving the correct Biblical Canon.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 2/9/2010 9:25:19 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/9/2010 10:07:23 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
There is no reason to break away from the Church, absolutely none. Well there you go again Walter, assuming that the organization that you belong to is "The Church", when "The Church" is comprised of ALL Believers in Christ from where ever they are. Whether you believe the Orthodox Church is the Church or not is not the point. Whoever the Church is, there is no reason to break away from her. Jesus established His Church and it has continued ever since, unbroken. To form a new denomination, for whatever reason, is unscriptural.
If all believers in Christ (whatever that means) comprises the Church, then why do you disagree and argue here in the forums? There is only "one" faith, not multiple denominations of it.
quote:
It doesn't matter if the doctrine that you organization teaches concerning the 'Assumption of Mary" is true or not.
Now that is interesting; no that is scary. Here is a link for you, that is, if you're not scared. http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_1636/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#1636
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/10/2010 8:49:13 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Whether you believe the Orthodox Church is the Church or not is not the point. Whoever the Church is, there is no reason to break away from her. Jesus established His Church and it has continued ever since, unbroken. To form a new denomination, for whatever reason, is unscriptural
Someone who follows the instructions in the New Testament, believes in Jesus Christ, and is obedient to his Word is a Believer.
That would include some in you denomination, some in my denomination, and some from most other denominations.
Walter, the Eastern Orthodox organization does not save; Jesus does.
quote:
Now that is interesting; no that is scary. Here is a link for you, that is, if you're not scared. http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_1636/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#1636
Walter, that link does not go to an article, and the thread that it does go to does not address my question about the assumption of Mary and your statement that it matterr not whether that doctrine is true, you are going to believe it anyway.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/10/2010 4:27:00 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
Walter, that link does not go to an article, and the thread that it does go to does not address my question about the assumption of Mary and your statement that it matterr not whether that doctrine is true, you are going to believe it anyway.
Hey RC . How are you? If you would like, I'd be happy to discuss Mary's Assumption on that thread. peacde, pat.
Here is St. Cyprian Bishop of Carthage a father from teh 200s on Apostolic Succession:
"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).
And here is St. Paul, who taught that we should follow both Apostolic Tradition in both forms: Written and Oral (2 Thes 2:15). Here is Eph 4:11-14:
And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, 12
to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, 5 for building up the body of Christ,
13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, 6 to the extent of the full stature of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/10/2010 6:18:44 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Someone who follows the instructions in the New Testament, believes in Jesus Christ, and is obedient to his Word is a Believer.
That would include some in you denomination, some in my denomination, and some from most other denominations. Where do you find this in the scripture? There were no denominations, each having their own bent on theology. There is only "one" faith, not many. And anyone who did were in danger of heresy.
quote:
Walter, the Eastern Orthodox organization does not save; Jesus does. Where did this come from? Of course Jesus saves.
quote:
Walter, that link does not go to an article, and the thread that it does go to does not address my question about the assumption of Mary and your statement that it matterr not whether that doctrine is true, you are going to believe it anyway. Sorry, it worked for me last night. I don't know what happened. I did noticed some of the links were missing the domain name.
Let me try it again. If you want to talk about the assumption of Mary, here is the link you should go to: http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_1635/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#1635
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/10/2010 6:47:45 PM
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patricius79
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WALTER WROTE:
quote:
Where do you find this in the scripture? There were no denominations, each having their own bent on theology. There is only "one" faith, not many. And anyone who did were in danger of heresy.
This is correct, and everyone who was a presbyter (the Greek "presbyteros" beiong the source of the English word "priest") was "appointed" by the Apostles, or those they had "appointed".
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/10/2010 11:51:17 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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So, are some of you saying man's (apostles) appointing supercede's God's appointing..? That's what I'm reading here...correct me if I am wrong...
Leaders of the 'church' down through the centuries can only be appointed by apostles who had been appointed by apostles, who had been appointed by the apostles...and so on, and so on...My question in all this would be where is God in all this..? Who is to say 'apostles' were more political than others in some eras, and appointed leaders more out of those political reasons than for Godly reasons.
Sounds to me like your 'true church' has taken God out of the loop...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/11/2010 6:43:30 AM
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patricius79
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quote:
So, are some of you saying man's (apostles) appointing supercede's God's appointing..?
No. But Biblically, I don't know of any evidence that a person can be appointed to the presbyterate ("priesthood" in English) except by a presbyter.
quote:
That's what I'm reading here...correct me if I am wrong...
The Scriptures say that we should follow the Apostolic Tradition (2 Thes 2:15) and the Pillar and Ground of Truth (1 Tim 3:15), which has always held that ordination required Apostolic Succesion.
The idea that the original Apostles were the last of the Apostles does not appear to be in the Bible, which explains why Paul says that we have Apostles until we are all fully mature (Eph 4:11-13).
quote:
Who is to say 'apostles' were more political than others in some eras, and appointed leaders more out of those political reasons than for Godly reasons.
That is true. The New Covenant is a law of grace, however, and does not rely primarily on man's good will. IN the early Church, there were many Catholic bishops who defected to heresies. But none of the Biblical or post-Biblical fathers saw this as having any power over Jesus. For example, here is St. Athanasius, the greatest defender of the doctrine of Our God, the Trinity:
"[H]old fast, every one, the faith we have received from the Fathers, which they who assembled at Nicaea recorded in writing, and endure not those who endeavour to innovate thereon. And however they may write phrases out of the Scripture, endure not their writings; however they may speak the language of the orthodox, yet attend not to what they say; for they speak not with an upright mind, but putting on such language like sheeps' clothing, in their hearts they think with Arius, after the manner of the devil, who is the author of all heresies. For he too made use of the words of Scripture, but was put to silence by our Saviour. . . . the character of apostolical men is sincere and incapable of fraud." (Circular to Bishops of Egypt and Libya 8; NPNF 2, Vol. IV)
quote:
Sounds to me like your 'true church' has taken God out of the loop... Matthew
How so?
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 2/11/2010 6:59:20 AM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/11/2010 3:35:10 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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I originally asked, "So, some of you are saying that man's appointing supercede's God's appointing."
In reply:
quote:
No. But Biblically, I don't know of any evidence that a person can be appointed to the presbyterate ("priesthood" in English) except by a presbyter.
Which kind of sounds like an oxymoron.
It is God who calls men to the ministry, not man. Could it be that the purpose of the scripture is so that, almost akin to baptizing, it is for public announcement that 'so-and-so' has been called, and has become a 'priest?' No that it has to be an apostlic succession because they have 'all authority,' but merely so that the church will know and recognize who a priest (or pastor) is, and where they have come from; proper acknowledgement, if you will, of who God had already called, and confirmed by His Holy Spirit.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/11/2010 3:38:45 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
How so?
By giving to mere men the authority to say who will and will not be leaders in the church. Pretty much takes God out of the picture, especially if the church heads are very politically minded; an example would be the pope during WWII...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/12/2010 7:24:40 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1884
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
So, are some of you saying man's (apostles) appointing supercede's God's appointing..? That's what I'm reading here...correct me if I am wrong...
Leaders of the 'church' down through the centuries can only be appointed by apostles who had been appointed by apostles, who had been appointed by the apostles...and so on, and so on...My question in all this would be where is God in all this..? Who is to say 'apostles' were more political than others in some eras, and appointed leaders more out of those political reasons than for Godly reasons. Actually, the Holy Apostles appointed Bishops, and the Bishops appointed other Bishops and Priests and Deacons. God is definitely in all of this, because it is He who appointed it to do it this way.
quote:
Sounds to me like your 'true church' has taken God out of the loop... It is "God" who set the loop. It is when someone breaks away from the Church that they are out of God's loop. You don't find anyone in the NT appointing themselves apart from the Church.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/12/2010 9:33:05 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
Actually, the Holy Apostles appointed Bishops, and the Bishops appointed other Bishops and Priests and Deacons. God is definitely in all of this, because it is He who appointed it to do it this way.
Walter, I do not believe you truly understood my query, but that is okay, I pretty much already know where you stand on the issue.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/12/2010 9:41:00 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
It is when someone breaks away from the Church that they are out of God's loop. You don't find anyone in the NT appointing themselves apart from the Church.
I guess you mean people like myself, RC, and others on these boards basically because we are not a part of the EO Church. Would that be a more accurate assessment..?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/12/2010 9:43:02 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
quote:
RC;
Walter, the Eastern Orthodox organization does not save; Jesus does.
Walter;
Where did this come from? Of course Jesus saves.
Yes, Jesus saves, although according to some only in the EO Church...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/13/2010 12:48:44 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
Please forgive me, I can only respond to what is posted.
Oh, really... 
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 2/13/2010 7:49:59 AM
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patricius79
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quote:
originally asked, "So, some of you are saying that man's appointing supercede's God's appointing."
In reply:
quote:
[PAT:]No. But Biblically, I don't know of any evidence that a person can be appointed to the presbyterate ("priesthood" in English) except by a presbyter.
[IRON:]Which kind of sounds like an oxymoron.
How so?
quote:
It is God who calls men to the ministry, not man. Could it be that the purpose of the scripture is so that, almost akin to baptizing, it is for public announcement that 'so-and-so' has been called, and has become a 'priest?'
I don't know but that sounds like speculation. But a baptist for example cannot logically disallow infant Baptism on the basis that it is not explicitly, and then break away from established Church authority (cf. Rom 13:1etc)--or appoint presbyters through non-presbtyers--since neither of these things are described in the Bible. (Likewise with contraception, which is never given permission in the Bible--cf. Gen 38:9, Gen 1:28--and which the reformers condemned. While all protestants were falling away from the Church's Tradition (cf. 2 Thes 2:15) on this, only those adhering to Apostolic Succession were preserved from this sin, which is contrary to "the two become on flesh, as all denominations knew until 1930)
quote:
No that it has to be an apostlic succession because they have 'all authority,' but merely so that the church will know and recognize who a priest (or pastor) is, and where they have come from; proper acknowledgement, if you will, of who God had already called, and confirmed by His Holy Spirit.
Exactly, that's how I know that the Catholic Bishops and the Eastern bishops have actual authority: they were called by God through Biblical means.
quote:
How so?
By giving to mere men the authority to say who will and will not be leaders in the church. Pretty much takes God out of the picture, especially if the church heads are very politically minded; an example would be the pope during WWII...
Matthew
What you say is not in Scripture but is a human opinion, to which there are great counterpoints. I would argue the opposite: that by changing the way God teaches us to conduct ourselves in the Church, those callled reformers invented un-Biblical doctrines such as lay ordination and Sola Scriptura, which is contrary to the whole practice of the O.T. (cf. Mt 23:1-3) and N.T. Church (cf. 2 Thes 2:15)
Historically, the doctrine of Apostolic Succession, as described in Acts 1:20, 26; 14:23; 2 Tim 1:6, 13; 2:2--etc--was seen as non-negotiable by the great Trinitarian fathers like St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, etc, and the earliest fathers like St. Irenaeus, who appeaks to general succession--and especially the Petrine Succession at Rome--as a fundamental basis for knowing true doctrine as opposed to heresy.
Also, Pope Pius 12th did more for the Jews historically during WWII than anybody. He was a holy man. Everyone knew this at the close of the war and at his death. Then people made things up. If one studies this issue carefully as to teh facts, one sees a good example of how Apostolic Successors are slandered greatly. (Other examples are the Inquisition myths and the failure to teach abuot the facts of the Protestant INquisition.)
But the Truth always comes out in the End, when we will all be one, as the Father and the Son are one.
May we all grow in the grace and peace of Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
Pat
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 2/13/2010 8:24:45 AM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 3/15/2010 11:54:47 AM
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patricius79
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There is no Biblical basis for breaking away from the appointed presbyters, apostolic succession, or the Apostolic Church. Cf. Acts 14:23, 2 Tim 2:2.
Hegesippus
"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 3/15/2010 1:18:10 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
There is no Biblical basis for breaking away from the appointed presbyters, apostolic succession, or the Apostolic Church. Cf. Acts 14:23, 2 Tim 2:2.
When any organization turns to evil and idolatry, then the Believers must come out of the organization;
(2Co 6:14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
(2Co 6:15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
(2Co 6:16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(2Co 6:17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
The Churches that claim Apostolic Succession went into error many hundreds of years ago, so true Believers had/have no choice but to come out of the error and back to the truth of Scripure.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 3/15/2010 3:12:55 PM
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AmericanJosiah
Posts: 280
Joined: 3/11/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Ok, let’s get to the bottom of this. Where or Who is the real Church? No, this thread is NOT to prove the RCC is the real Church. But if you think it is, then you’re welcome to discuss it.
I know we come from many different denominations, so why is your denomination the True Church and not the others? Or are all of them the True Church? Why or why not?
Since each have different beliefs, I don’t see how can they all be the True Church.
I believe that the church is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers.
I believe that Christians are people and thus the gathering/assembly of Christians is also believers.
I don't believe the church was/is/ever will be a denomination.
Although that's not to suggest that denominations are, per se, wrong or bad. Simply that none (or all collectively) are to be confused with the church of Christ that is one, holy and catholic - and that includes The Catholic Church.
quote:
In the title I included Apostolic Succession for a reason. I believe the True Church since the beginning has always been around thru succession. Maybe I need to explain this a little bit more. By Apostolic Succession, I don’t mean that the office itself was transferred thru the ages. What I mean is that Jesus appointed the twelve disciples, so they succeeded our Savior. Then the Apostles appointed bishops, so they in turn succeeded the Apostles. And then the bishops ordained other bishops, and so on.
This is one way the early Church was able to keep herself from false teachings. They argue that these other men were not disciples of the Apostles, or disciples of disciples of disciples. So they would not know what Christ taught, except those whom the teachings were passed on to.
I disagree.
1. You first need to document/substantiate EXACTLY what was "given" to the 12-14 Apostles - AND NO OTHER. Specifically quote Jesus on each point so that it is stated exactly WHAT is being "given" to each AND that such was given to NO OTHER.
2. Then you need to document that when others were appointed by them, each one of the things you documented in step one was "passed on" fully and wholly to such AND TO NO OTHER.
3. Then you need to document every case of such from 30 AD to 2010 AD so that it is revealed historically that there has been one unbroken chain of such "passing on."
4. Then you need to document that this keeps the denomination from error.
Be careful....
1. I've been asking question #1 for at least 10 years, including to a Catholic deacon and priest. None have get supplied any documentation.
2. Ditto for point #2
3. There are virtually no contemporary records of ordinations (beyond what is recorded in the NT) before the 4th century; the "lists" that some now present are ENTIRELY unsubstantiated, retroactively created and have absolutely no historical validity.
4. Since the RCC insists that The Oriental Orthodox Churches and The Eastern Orthodox Churches all have VALID Apostolic Succession and yet are WRONG, therefore the RCC does not agree that Apostolic Succession has any relevance to being correct.
quote:
Now, has this succession been broken somehow, or has it continue ever since? Is it possible that God would somehow forsake His Church for hundreds of years, and now revive it once again?
1. I don't think God will ever forsake His children.
2. As for a denomination somehow being incapable of erring but erring nonetheless, only for God to create another infallible denomination - take that up with the Mormons.
quote:
Or is following a succession of bishops not valid? Why would it be ok for someone to break away from the main Church and start a new denomination? Is this scriptural?
1. As to Apostolic Succession, see about. It's moot, however, since no one has evidence of such "succession" regardless of whatever it might mean, and it's moot to whether the denomination is correct in what it teaches.
2. Starting a congregation or denomination has nothing whatsoever to do with breaking with the church - unless that congregation or denomination is non-Christian (for example, Buddhist) but then it wouldn't be a congregation or denomination.
I hope that helps.
Pax
- Josiah
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< Message edited by AmericanJosiah -- 3/15/2010 7:43:49 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 3/15/2010 6:42:45 PM
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walterquez
Posts: 1884
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjamesquote:
ORIGINAL: patricius79
There is no Biblical basis for breaking away from the appointed presbyters, apostolic succession, or the Apostolic Church. Cf. Acts 14:23, 2 Tim 2:2.
When any organization turns to evil and idolatry, then the Believers must come out of the organization; Nowhere does the Holy Scripture say to come out of the Church,. Those passages you quoted is telling the believers to stay away from those not of the Church.
It does say that those who left the Church were not of the Church, because if they were, they would have remained.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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